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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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89 replies

DuesToTheDirt · 07/05/2025 22:15

Prompted by the Dundee uni thread, but also in relation to statements by many other organisations....

Where the fuck were they (excuse my French) when women were shoved to one side to make way for men? Were they apologising to women? Were they issuing statements of support? Were they saying they would do all they could to meet our needs?

Bloody hell it makes me angry.

OP posts:
Namechangechanged · 08/05/2025 14:21

Hear hear. Thin veneer of “We’re so inclusive” hides layer upon layer of misogyny.

It disgusts me but we see you, misogynist apologists, and your response to the SC ruling (which is plain, simple biological reality).

stubbornhabits · 08/05/2025 13:55

My university employer is another one that has put out a statement about support for trans people. Nothing about women (they daren't even say that word). No haste to make any changes to comply with the law.

The EDI stuff seems to make the right noises about inclusivity for everyone but in reality all they seem to talk about is trans rights.

I am angry.

Kucinghitam · 08/05/2025 13:55

Chris's abysmal reading comprehension and/or astounding ability to create hyperbolic non sequiturs is unabated, I see.

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 08/05/2025 13:55

Christinapple · 08/05/2025 13:45

What is this post supposed to mean? "How dare women exist who aren't gender critical"?

No Christinapple, that’s ridiculous. We just don’t understand how some women pander to men like this, and don’t see the negative impact on many other women and on children. Don’t be so dramatic.

Christinapple · 08/05/2025 13:45

PopstarPoppy · 07/05/2025 22:45

And the worst part of all of this is the number of WOMEN saying how awful it is and ‘speaking up’ about their support of TW. What about other women???

What is this post supposed to mean? "How dare women exist who aren't gender critical"?

Skyellaskerry · 08/05/2025 13:33

@Bearsinmotion hopefully health and safety professionals will be able to lean on this ruling in any disagreements with DEI. You would hope anyway!

Bearsinmotion · 08/05/2025 13:21

If health and safety had been consulted they certainly didn't contribute to the discussion.

Skyellaskerry · 08/05/2025 13:10

Bearsinmotion · 08/05/2025 10:39

Yeah, my public sector organisation is going down this route. There was a question in our staff talk about the ruling and the response was that we want to stay inclusive and are not making any policy changes yet. Nothing at all to indicate anyone in the organisation would see the ruling as positive, and no mention of women. Very much gave the impression the organisation is looking for ways to not follow the guidance.

Any idea whether the health and safety department or lead had to say about it, seeing as the 1992 health and safety at work regs prescribe separate facilities for men and women, and there’s ruling made clear what man and woman means. So not complying with the ruling I believe would breach health and safety law.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/05/2025 12:51

PopstarPoppy · 07/05/2025 23:01

In my experience, the people chanting “be kind” are usually being unkind to the person they are speaking to! What it generally means is “disregard your feelings for those of others” and is almost only ever expected of women. When did you last hear men being told to “be kind”?

I can assure you that fathers of trans people are told to be kind, with rarely any understanding or concern about our feelings and ethical dilemmas. However, I agree that women bear the brunt of, as so often.

AndrogynousElf · 08/05/2025 12:48

I can’t bear it. If sex is a spectrum, then how are babies made?

PermanentTemporary · 08/05/2025 12:46

Yes. I'm 56 and it's 2025. Of course I know trans people. I married someone in 1995 who had recently come off cross sex hormones. I've got relatives, friends, friends' children and friends' spouses who have come out as trans and as nonbinary. I've worked in a specialist service for trans people. I know a professional who worked at GIDS. Im currently scribbling furious comments all over reading Judith Butler's Who's Afraid of Gender. Am I allowed to have an opinion now?

My employer, which I have always thought was quite sensible, has produced a crappy statement signposting us to Wellbeing Support. Because the law as written doesn't suit everybody. FGS.

PopstarPoppy · 08/05/2025 12:33

TheaBrandt1 · 08/05/2025 07:02

Are older women going along with it? Thankfully all my friends and family have revealed themselves as GC which is a relief. We late 40s / early 50s. Even my 16 year old is GC now.

Largely not, thankfully. I think it’s mainly Millennials and Gen Z.

PopstarPoppy · 08/05/2025 12:24

minnienono · 08/05/2025 07:29

I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses? F-M in this case obviously. Not all trans people have decided later in life to inconvenience women which seems to be the mantra here, some knew they were different before they had the language skills to explain and 20 years before the current “boom”. We need to be able to offer dignity to everyone, to ensure that natal women are not disadvantaged by this but also that genuine trans people (either direction) are not unduly excluded either. So open or mixed sports would be a good example (triathlon have brought this in), larger settings to have a mix of toilets to suit all, changing rooms likewise remembering that families often need mixed changing too, that where appropriate sex is used a determining factor for services but these are limited to strictly necessary (which in life is not many things let’s face it)

I do know a genuine trans person. Someone who was trans when I met them 30 years ago, before it was trendy. We were close friends. We now don’t communicate, because she insists that any objection to transwomen being in women’s spaces is simply down to bigotry. She makes sure everyone knows all about HER trauma, but it seems biological women aren’t affected by trauma, they just want to be mean, exclusionary TERFs. Nothing to do with genuine fear. It appears empathy is a one-way street.

On to your second point, I am not trans, but as a child refused to wear dresses and had screaming tantrums if required to wear one for an occasion (but was made to wear one anyway, being that it was in the days before small children were given free reign to dictate to their parents). I grew up living in trousers, hating dolls, playing ball games with local boys and climbing trees, which really wasn’t that uncommon. When puberty arrived, I hated my breasts. I really didn’t much like being a girl. I can only imagine what I might have believed about myself if I’d been born this century, but fortunately when I was a child we were just called ‘tomboys’ and it was assumed we would ‘grow out of it’. I never ‘grew out’ of wearing trousers, but I did grow to like my breasts and to be happy as a woman.

One of the strangest things about the recent diversification of gender identities is that many of those pushing the idea are very vocal about not conforming to historical gender stereotypes. Yet examples given for why they identify as they do are often directly related to those stereotypes. You are female but hate wearing dresses, therefore you can’t simply be a girl/woman. You are male, but love wearing makeup, so you can’t be a boy/man. If people really wanted to be gender non-conforming, they would just wear what they liked and partake of activities they liked without feeling the need to label it. I appreciate that there are genuine trans people, but the wider move towards multiple gender labels really just seems to be more and more precise personality pigeonholing, and smacks of attention-seeking. A lot of teenagers are doing it because it is trendy. Medicalising something that is very normal at that age – wanting to be different – is dangerous. Genuine trans people will not ‘grow out’ of it. But most teenagers are not trans, they just have a wide range of different interests and preferences, not all of which align with so-called ‘traditional gender roles’. And that’s ok. We ought to be putting more emphasis on that fact.

ETA: I am all for making sure provision is made for trans people. I just want it to be separate from provision for biological females. I don’t think any women have suggested transpeople shouldn’t be taken into account. It’s the TRA mob that have refused to countenance the idea.

lemmein · 08/05/2025 11:47

I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses? F-M in this case ob

@minnienono - sigh, this really is the most backward ideology ever. Even your ‘ftm in this case ob’ is really telling - just a load of sexist bullshit nonsense that has led to swathes of young people being permanently mutiliated.

Little girls aren’t born wearing dresses!

Kinsters · 08/05/2025 11:26

Oops are we not allowed to share funny Reddit screenshots.

Kinsters · 08/05/2025 11:26

ThisOpenMauveLurker · 08/05/2025 09:59

And yet the common refrain on Reddit is that we want to eradicate them from the world (not just from being able to function in a normal life).

Such DARVO, very narcissism.

Apparently empathy is revolutionary 🤭🤭 this from a poster who posted about their fantasy conversation with a mute accessory human, sorry, woman where they called the accessory human a stupid fuck and hoped they died for being uppity and not agreeing gender is "bimordal" 😭🤣

I don't get why they're so desperate to feel like everyone hates them.

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ScrollingLeaves · 08/05/2025 11:25

Shortshriftandlethal · 08/05/2025 07:55

Lots of us know people who have adopted trans identities: either because their own children have done so; or their husband has done so after years of cross dressing (as you mention); because they have friends or other family members who are are trans identified; because they work in teaching or the mental halth professions etc...or simply because they frequently see and come across cross dressing men in their local neighbourhoods frequently. And sometimes young women with beards.

There is no such thing as 'trans' other than it being a way to frame one's cross dressing proclivities, or to frame a discomfort with the expectations of one's sex; for some to frame dysphoria. We are all human beings, either male or female, struggling with the conditions of our lives.

Since the madness really took hold, it has always been obvious that third spaces and categories were the solution...and that is the most likely outcome now

Edited

You have put that so well I think.

TropicalRain · 08/05/2025 11:18

@minnienono thank you for your viewpoint on this thread. As others have said, dresses are not inherently for one sex or the other, I did not like them as a girl. Both my DD wear the version of their school uniform that the boys usually wear because they find it more comfortable. When she was a toddler I would give my first DD choices as to what to wear, I remember her once throwing a pair of socks that happened to be pink and choosing a pair with a truck on them. None of this means she wants to be a boy because girls like shorts, trousers, pockets and trucks, just as some boys like pink, bows and unicorns. I grew up amongst an Artsy set in the 80s and it strikes me as homophobic to say that girls who don't like dresses are trans, we women can be hetero butch looking, lesbian butch, this is all womanhood. Just as manhood can involve eyeliner and nail polish (it certainly did in music in the 80s!). And women have long advocated for all these third spaces and inclusivity, in the main it isn't men who have been doing that at all.

The source of women's oppression lies in our biology and so the legal rights we fight for must be absolutely rooted in this biology. It is a legal tautology.

I am interested to know your thoughts on this counter argument (if you have the energy to share) x

Waitingfordoggo · 08/05/2025 11:18

@minnienono Since when is a two year-old girl refusing to wear a dress ‘trans’? I’m hoping guessing you don’t have children.

Yes, I had a little girl who didn’t wear dresses and who wanted (and got) a short haircut. I also had a little boy who liked wearing Disney Princess dresses and shoes.

Fast forward 15 years, neither of them are ‘trans’. One of them is gay, the other is straight. They’re just normal young people who were allowed to try on different clothes and roles when they were little, without anyone giving them the idea they were ‘born in the wrong body’.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 08/05/2025 11:02

user1471538275 · 08/05/2025 09:18

@minnienono Not wanting to put on a dress at 2 has nothing to do with identifying as 'trans'.

Many children don't like the impracticality of a dress, others don't like the sensory aspects of it, still others don't like the set of cultural expectations that comes with gendered clothing.

The problem is cultural gendered expectations.
The problem is lack of acceptance of gay relationships within many cultural groups.
The problem is lack of mental health services for traumatised young people or those with emerging mental health issues.
The problem is lack of understanding around neurodivergence and their often rigid thinking patterns/ attempts to belong and fit in in a world that rejects them
The problem is men expecting the world to revolve around them and their desires and co-opting women and children to achieve that.

I haven't met anyone 'trans' because you cannot change sex, it is not humanly possible. I have met young people and adults that identify that way, but it is clear that they have one of the issue I describe above.

"I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses? F-M in this case obviously."

@minnienono - @user1471538275 has answered this perfectly, as has @Kucinghitam -

"The sensible and actually Kind response to a female child who refuses to put on a dress, or a male child who wants to wear a dress, is to say "That's absolutely fine, because clothes are clothes, and you can have whatever interests and hobbies you like."

Exclaiming "By golly, if you don't adhere to current sexist stereotypes in dress and behaviour, you are a problem and your sex must be wrong, let's subject you to a lifetime of medicalisation!" is Not Kind, however much it makes you enjoy polishing your Righteous halo."

I cannot understand why, after decades of women fighting against toxic stereotypes - girls MUST wear skirts, make up, long hair, be caring, like gentle activities etc, and only boys can like short hair, trousers, rough sports etc - and finally getting to the point where it is entirely unremarkable for a woman to have short hair, wear no make up, live in trousers and play rugby, only to have the Trans Rights Movement send us hurtling back to the time of the toxic stereotypes! And then to portray this as a progressive move!

ScrollingLeaves · 08/05/2025 11:01

INeedAPensieve · 07/05/2025 22:31

I'm actually really livid about it all now. This proves without a shadow of a doubt how seeped in misogyny pretty much the entire country is. All these sad faces and statements being rolled out across so many of our institutions for a small subset of men and nothing supporting women.

We are seen as sub-human without a shadow of a doubt. We had to fight to make sure our dignity, privacy and safety was assured in vulnerable situations but no words of comfort or understanding for what we go through on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. No statements saying that the ruling is protecting our sex based rights. Nothing acknowledging what women have been through for so long under misogyny and this horrible ideology. It's just crickets. Fuck them. I actually am done. I hold all of them in contempt.

I feel the same.

GrannyAchingsShepherdsHut · 08/05/2025 11:00

I'm livid too. So much so that I've just submitted a carefully worded rant to the staff survey. I've been too scared before now, because while they say it's anonymous I don't actually believe them, especially if they deem the response 'transphobic' but I'm so bloody angry to have had yet another survey asking me what my gender identity is without an option to say none/it's a load of bollocks. We've also had a 'statement of support' and I was invited to a meeting to talk about our reactions to the judgement, as a part of a meeting about something completely unrelated! I really really don't think they wanted my reaction! Perhaps I should have joined with a party hat on and holding champagne?!?

I've pointed out they've been illegally discriminating against women for years, they've not acknowledged, ever, that some of their staff will have a legally protected gender critical belief, all comms are on the assumption we are all TWAW, and there isn't even a Women's network, despite there being a network for pretty much everything else and much waffle about always being inclusive to everyone. Utter bullshit.

We even had an accountant designing the new toilets purely because he is a transwoman. It's utter madness.

Bearsinmotion · 08/05/2025 10:39

Yeah, my public sector organisation is going down this route. There was a question in our staff talk about the ruling and the response was that we want to stay inclusive and are not making any policy changes yet. Nothing at all to indicate anyone in the organisation would see the ruling as positive, and no mention of women. Very much gave the impression the organisation is looking for ways to not follow the guidance.

MagpiePi · 08/05/2025 10:17

minnienono · 08/05/2025 07:29

I’m guessing none of your properly know a genuine trans person, someone who at age 2 refused to put on dresses? F-M in this case obviously. Not all trans people have decided later in life to inconvenience women which seems to be the mantra here, some knew they were different before they had the language skills to explain and 20 years before the current “boom”. We need to be able to offer dignity to everyone, to ensure that natal women are not disadvantaged by this but also that genuine trans people (either direction) are not unduly excluded either. So open or mixed sports would be a good example (triathlon have brought this in), larger settings to have a mix of toilets to suit all, changing rooms likewise remembering that families often need mixed changing too, that where appropriate sex is used a determining factor for services but these are limited to strictly necessary (which in life is not many things let’s face it)

Every trans person is genuine, didn't you know? From people with severe body dysmorphia to those who have a passion for malaga airport, or fancy a stretch in a women's prison.
All👏genuine 👏trans 👏

ThisOpenMauveLurker · 08/05/2025 10:01

CowboyFromHell · 08/05/2025 09:46

I’m so glad I found this thread. My workplace EDI’s group put out the most ridiculously biased statement on the ruling last week. And while I’m pretty sure some of my colleagues are gender critical I’m not 100% sure so can’t vent to them!

Paragraph after paragraph of how appalled the EDI group was with the ruling, the awful effects it will have on trans people, how we wholeheartedly support the trans community etc. Followed by a long list of links for anyone ‘affected’ about the ruling. Including the usual suspects like Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence.

There wasn’t a hint of acknowledgment that not everyone will disagree with the ruling, or even any mention of women. It’s crazy how a group purporting to represent EDI perspectives has such a massive blind spot, and such a laser focus on all things trans that any other views, or the bigger picture, is completely lost.

Wonder if any women could bring claims of constructive dismissal over these organisational statements.

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