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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Amendment to Data Bill to revert all gender markers and out all trans people

412 replies

bluegoldflow · 02/05/2025 22:07

Hoping this passes, it shouldn't be possible to change your sex (a biological impossibility) on legal documents. This would prevent men using this loop hole to erase their past identities and stop male crimes being recorded as female crimes.

Amendment to Data Bill to revert all gender markers and out all trans people
Amendment to Data Bill to revert all gender markers and out all trans people
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IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 13:02

BackToLurk · 05/05/2025 12:45

In this instance your support for a family member amounted to reinforcing the myth that the SC ruling was some swingeing attack on ‘trans rights’. That’s what the protest was about. Maybe you could have taken this as an opportunity to talk about what it really meant. Or why women felt the need to go to the Supreme Court. Or why support doesn’t always mean blanket approval and indulgence.

Absolutely take that point. It was hastily organised and I made the decision to be on the green but not march to it. I judged that one extra person wouldn’t necessarily mean wholehearted and unconditional support. And perhaps I was wrong on that day? But I also read as much as I could before and after. And have talked to the people I know. I didn’t feel (and they know this) that it amounted to blanket approval and indulgence.

Datun · 05/05/2025 12:57

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 12:15

No - of course I’m aware of them! I’d already addressed that in a previous post, calling them abhorrent. I think my posts have been very clear about my personal connection. Stop judging me. I don’t support or claim to understand each and every trans person but was aiming to give a rounded view. I’m upset because I was VERY observant! My family member is the most kind, gentle person you could wish to know. Do you think I want a cause that affects them to be taken over by violent and abusive people? Of course not.

Do you know how many people say how angry they are with transactivists for making trans people look bad, and then blame US for it??

Do you know what that looks like? Misogyny.

We are not to blame for the actions of these men threatening us.

if they have led to you being upset, take it up with them.

We're busy protecting our spaces and children from those very same men.

ChompinCrocodiles · 05/05/2025 12:55

TruthInTransition · 05/05/2025 07:13

It's deeply unfair and dangerous to judge an entire community based on the actions of a few individuals. When someone commits a crime, they—and only they—should be held responsible. No one blames all cis women for the crimes of one (Nicola Murray for Child Abuse) to be like-minded, so why is it acceptable to do that to trans women?

Weaponizing the actions of a few people (some of whom may not even be genuinely trans) to smear thousands of innocent trans women who are simply trying to live their lives is nothing short of bigotry. It's the same flawed logic that has fueled racism, sexism, and homophobia for generations.

If you're truly concerned about justice and safety, focus on the individuals committing the crimes—not on tarring an entire group. Blanket assumptions like yours aren’t protecting anyone; they’re just spreading fear and hate.

Trans women are not a threat to cis women. Bigotry, misinformation, and scapegoating are the real threats to a fair and compassionate society.

What’s worse is that anti-trans activists are now pushing for our birth sex to be listed on official documents, which would effectively out trans women in every public setting—at work, at the doctor’s, when travelling, even at a checkout counter. This is a direct violation of our right to privacy and safety. The Equality Act exists to protect us from exactly this kind of discrimination, yet some are working to undermine it under the guise of 'safety'—while actually putting us in harm’s way. Heres a rhetorical question and try to be honest with yourselves

Let me ask a rhetorical question—and I urge you to answer it honestly in your heart:

How many of you have ever truly known, spoken to, or spent time with a trans woman who simply wants to live her life like any other woman? How many of you genuinely understand the emotional, social, and physical toll we endure just to exist peacefully in a world that questions our humanity at every turn?

The word “woman” is not a threat. It is not a battleground. It is a shared identity that reflects a lived experience—and trans women, like all women, navigate life through a lens shaped by society, by gender, and often by adversity. The fear some people express over trans women using the term "woman" reveals not a concern for safety but a deep-rooted discomfort with inclusion and equality. That discomfort is not our burden to carry.

This widespread misunderstanding needs to be addressed clearly: when trans women identify as women, we are not claiming to be cisgender. We are not attempting to erase biological distinctions, nor are we trying to appropriate someone else’s identity. We are simply stating the truth of our own lived realities. We are trans women—and we are proud of that fact.

We are not asking for special treatment. We are demanding basic human decency. The right to live authentically. The right to be recognized accurately. The right not to be misgendered or dismissed because of ignorance or prejudice.

To consistently refer to us as men is not only deeply disrespectful—it is discriminatory. It is a conscious choice to invalidate our identities and erase our humanity. If you refuse to acknowledge us as trans women, you are not just disagreeing—you are actively engaging in dehumanization.

This isn’t a matter of opinion. This is about dignity, safety, and truth. If your advocacy for women’s rights excludes trans women, then it is not truly about equality—it is about gatekeeping. And if your language reduces us to something we are not, then it’s not just wrong. It’s dangerous.

A just society is one that listens, learns, and evolves. It doesn’t cling to outdated fears; it builds a future where everyone—cis, trans, or otherwise—can live with respect, safety, and equality.

So much fucking waffle.

I'm done with 'be kind' and with mangling the very meaning of words to try and validate someone else.

If you were born with a penis, you're a man. A man. He/him/male/man. That's it. Wear what you want but stay out of female spaces and stop expecting people to play along with your delusion.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/05/2025 12:51

BackToLurk · 05/05/2025 12:45

In this instance your support for a family member amounted to reinforcing the myth that the SC ruling was some swingeing attack on ‘trans rights’. That’s what the protest was about. Maybe you could have taken this as an opportunity to talk about what it really meant. Or why women felt the need to go to the Supreme Court. Or why support doesn’t always mean blanket approval and indulgence.

Perfectly put.

BiologicalRobot · 05/05/2025 12:51

Igmum · 05/05/2025 09:46

Sex Matters has a template letter on this to send to Peter Kyle. It takes a few seconds to add your details but it MUST be sent today (Monday 5th) so please make this your Bank Holiday terfing https://sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-peter-kyle/

Thank you. Have sent it too.

PruthePrune · 05/05/2025 12:50

@TruthInTransition

No male gets to tell women how to define OUR word. Eff off.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2025 12:45

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 12:15

No - of course I’m aware of them! I’d already addressed that in a previous post, calling them abhorrent. I think my posts have been very clear about my personal connection. Stop judging me. I don’t support or claim to understand each and every trans person but was aiming to give a rounded view. I’m upset because I was VERY observant! My family member is the most kind, gentle person you could wish to know. Do you think I want a cause that affects them to be taken over by violent and abusive people? Of course not.

“Stop judging me”

Maybe you needed to take your own advice and not have judged the women on this forum.

BackToLurk · 05/05/2025 12:45

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 11:59

Ok I’ll leave you lot to argue it out amongst yourselves as I’m in tears here due to the comments aimed at me. I came on Mumsnet. I’m just a mum. You know when you support and love your children? Remember that? Well that’s me. Everything we’ve been through, I find it insulting to suggest I wasn’t observing. That is the whole reason I went. I know the person I care for inside out, and those they choose as friends. I wanted to view the wider community. I purposely didn’t march, in case it was too “hardcore”. I went straight to Parliament Square. I am not part of “rent-a-crowd” or on a jolly day out. The flowers comment was an easy target for sarcasm. The police were turned towards the crowds, and there were plenty of independent observers. I’m sorry I didn’t see the sign you refer to, I saw plenty of others whilst searching for the group, a lot had very moving personal messages. I would just implore you all to treat people with kindness and compassion.

In this instance your support for a family member amounted to reinforcing the myth that the SC ruling was some swingeing attack on ‘trans rights’. That’s what the protest was about. Maybe you could have taken this as an opportunity to talk about what it really meant. Or why women felt the need to go to the Supreme Court. Or why support doesn’t always mean blanket approval and indulgence.

TheOtherRaven · 05/05/2025 12:43

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 05/05/2025 12:39

Thank you - have emailed my MP
I won't hold my breath, though!

Mine equally always responds to any mention of women with a stern reminder that the most important thing is to 'respect' men. I'm not sure why he doesn't feel women deserve respect too, but his sexism is a depressingly common problem.

Done and sent. He cannot say that no woman in his constituency said anything.

SunnyViper · 05/05/2025 12:42

TruthInTransition · 05/05/2025 07:13

It's deeply unfair and dangerous to judge an entire community based on the actions of a few individuals. When someone commits a crime, they—and only they—should be held responsible. No one blames all cis women for the crimes of one (Nicola Murray for Child Abuse) to be like-minded, so why is it acceptable to do that to trans women?

Weaponizing the actions of a few people (some of whom may not even be genuinely trans) to smear thousands of innocent trans women who are simply trying to live their lives is nothing short of bigotry. It's the same flawed logic that has fueled racism, sexism, and homophobia for generations.

If you're truly concerned about justice and safety, focus on the individuals committing the crimes—not on tarring an entire group. Blanket assumptions like yours aren’t protecting anyone; they’re just spreading fear and hate.

Trans women are not a threat to cis women. Bigotry, misinformation, and scapegoating are the real threats to a fair and compassionate society.

What’s worse is that anti-trans activists are now pushing for our birth sex to be listed on official documents, which would effectively out trans women in every public setting—at work, at the doctor’s, when travelling, even at a checkout counter. This is a direct violation of our right to privacy and safety. The Equality Act exists to protect us from exactly this kind of discrimination, yet some are working to undermine it under the guise of 'safety'—while actually putting us in harm’s way. Heres a rhetorical question and try to be honest with yourselves

Let me ask a rhetorical question—and I urge you to answer it honestly in your heart:

How many of you have ever truly known, spoken to, or spent time with a trans woman who simply wants to live her life like any other woman? How many of you genuinely understand the emotional, social, and physical toll we endure just to exist peacefully in a world that questions our humanity at every turn?

The word “woman” is not a threat. It is not a battleground. It is a shared identity that reflects a lived experience—and trans women, like all women, navigate life through a lens shaped by society, by gender, and often by adversity. The fear some people express over trans women using the term "woman" reveals not a concern for safety but a deep-rooted discomfort with inclusion and equality. That discomfort is not our burden to carry.

This widespread misunderstanding needs to be addressed clearly: when trans women identify as women, we are not claiming to be cisgender. We are not attempting to erase biological distinctions, nor are we trying to appropriate someone else’s identity. We are simply stating the truth of our own lived realities. We are trans women—and we are proud of that fact.

We are not asking for special treatment. We are demanding basic human decency. The right to live authentically. The right to be recognized accurately. The right not to be misgendered or dismissed because of ignorance or prejudice.

To consistently refer to us as men is not only deeply disrespectful—it is discriminatory. It is a conscious choice to invalidate our identities and erase our humanity. If you refuse to acknowledge us as trans women, you are not just disagreeing—you are actively engaging in dehumanization.

This isn’t a matter of opinion. This is about dignity, safety, and truth. If your advocacy for women’s rights excludes trans women, then it is not truly about equality—it is about gatekeeping. And if your language reduces us to something we are not, then it’s not just wrong. It’s dangerous.

A just society is one that listens, learns, and evolves. It doesn’t cling to outdated fears; it builds a future where everyone—cis, trans, or otherwise—can live with respect, safety, and equality.

Give it a rest with ‘cis women’. There is no such thing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/05/2025 12:42

EmpressaurusKitty · 05/05/2025 12:13

This reminds me a bit of the demo outside the Portsmouth FiLiA conference.

Among other things the protesters drowned out the voices of rape survivors by shouting and chalked obscene pictures & phrases on the ground in a busy central area where lots of children were passing.

The organiser claimed to be very upset about this and refused to take any responsibility. It was all the fault of the nasty women for not being inclusive.

Yes I remember that too. It was all terribly unfortunate but the protest was just so valid and important!

illinivich · 05/05/2025 12:41

I can recognise how it becomes difficult for people. One family member manipulates a whole family, who bendover backwards
to make them happy. Because thats what families do for a whole range of issues.

Its easier for the whole family to be vegetarian if their children are, for example. But what people do is the equivalent of promising their child that the whole street or world will be vegetarian too.

Its an unrealistic demand and an unrealistic promise. Now the trans person is sad because their expectations arent met and the family are angry because their child is not happy anymore, the world doesn't revolve around their family and its dawning on them that their promises were never possible.

But the world cant be run by dysfunctional family dynamics. If your family member is upset, you have to have realistic solutions that dont negatively impact everyone else and every law passed.

TheOtherRaven · 05/05/2025 12:40

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 11:59

Ok I’ll leave you lot to argue it out amongst yourselves as I’m in tears here due to the comments aimed at me. I came on Mumsnet. I’m just a mum. You know when you support and love your children? Remember that? Well that’s me. Everything we’ve been through, I find it insulting to suggest I wasn’t observing. That is the whole reason I went. I know the person I care for inside out, and those they choose as friends. I wanted to view the wider community. I purposely didn’t march, in case it was too “hardcore”. I went straight to Parliament Square. I am not part of “rent-a-crowd” or on a jolly day out. The flowers comment was an easy target for sarcasm. The police were turned towards the crowds, and there were plenty of independent observers. I’m sorry I didn’t see the sign you refer to, I saw plenty of others whilst searching for the group, a lot had very moving personal messages. I would just implore you all to treat people with kindness and compassion.

And I'd implore you to consider why you have not been able to turn some of that kindness and compassion to women such as Sandie Peggie, or the victims of Karen White, or Katie Dolotowski. MANY women could have equally moving messages about what has happened to them as men destroyed their spaces and language and rights, but they would have risked being beaten up if they dared. Have you seen how they are treated at LWS events?

Women did not take this through courts just for a giggle one day to unfairly annoy men or to maliciously and unnecessarily upset trans people. They've shed a hell of a lot of tears too. Get real for goodness sake.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/05/2025 12:40

Helleofabore · 05/05/2025 12:27

I would like to know this too.

Every person I see that comes onto this board to berate, censure and vilify women who are saying ‘no! The law is now clarified it is time to prioritise female people’s needs for single sex provision again’, seems to not ever be able to acknowledge the harm that has been done. And the group who are doing it, but they target us instead.

This.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 05/05/2025 12:39

FigRollsAlly · 05/05/2025 12:28

Bumping this as it must be done TODAY and is a chance for us all to take action.

Thank you - have emailed my MP
I won't hold my breath, though!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/05/2025 12:39

FigRollsAlly · 05/05/2025 12:28

Bumping this as it must be done TODAY and is a chance for us all to take action.

Good point. Bump.

Merrymouse · 05/05/2025 12:39

The word “woman” is not a threat. It is not a battleground. It is a shared identity that reflects a lived experience—and trans women, like all women, navigate life through a lens shaped by society, by gender, and often by adversity.

There is no shared identity. Women who identify as men or as non-binary also need sex based rights because they are female.

Sex is either relevant or it isn't, and no public body should be collecting data unnecessarily. Sex discrimination is usually illegal, so there is noreason for it to be noted or recorded unless there is a clear need.

If you think the recording of sex is unlawful discrimination against people who have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, you should certainly make that argument, but privacy has never been an absolute right.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/05/2025 12:38

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 12:18

My mates - that’s a lot of mates! Think I knew four people there.

It’s a figure of speech. And yes, there are lots of misogynists in society, so it’s hardly surprising that many joined this “protest”.

SinnerBoy · 05/05/2025 12:36

To consistently refer to us as men is not only deeply disrespectful—it is discriminatory

It's actually neither of those things; and that's backed up by case law, not by what tranw order and demand.

You are a man, it's entirely accurate and correct to describe you thus. The Supreme Court has ruled that women only facilities mean just that, it's entirely justified legal discrimination to exclude you.

It cannot be disrespectful to describe you honestly and accurately.

Certainly, if we were colleagues and every time I encountered you, I said,

"Eurgh! It's Kevin who calls himself Keighleigh, he's a man in a dress."

That would be bullying, harassment and certainly disrespectful. On the other hand, if I said,

"Oi! You can't go in there, that's the ladies... No Keighleigh, you're not a woman, you're a man and that's why."

It would not be discriminatory.

Seethlaw · 05/05/2025 12:34

BingoWindow · 05/05/2025 11:02

I cannot get my head around in insistence of TWAW and falsifying data, it's so dangerous medically for the trans community.
The majority of men claiming to be transwomen will die with prostrate cancer.
Is it really worth the momentary kick when the invite came for the NHS for cervical screening. What a waste of resources. My trans sibling almost framed it, a standard admin process validating his thinking.
And if the Trans community are not getting breast, cervical or prostrate cancer we need to know if the crazy cocktail of hormones they have taken has accidentally stumbled on something that could protect everyone.

"The majority of men claiming to be transwomen will die with prostrate cancer. Is it really worth the momentary kick when the invite came for the NHS for cervical screening. What a waste of resources. My trans sibling almost framed it, a standard admin process validating his thinking."

I'm trans but I really don't get this. We already play with our health far enough by transitioning hormonally and/or surgically, so why add lack of proper screening to the list?? It's literally suicidal!

TheOtherRaven · 05/05/2025 12:31

WaffleParty · 05/05/2025 11:26

Beautifully written and well-considered.
Unfortunately it will not be well received on Mumsnet, but be assured there are plenty of cis women in the real world who understand that trans women pose no threat and deserve support and understanding.
Brave to post on here!

Yes, its terribly emotive and sounds very noble.

I'd point out that it dismisses women and all their concerns AND THE THINGS THEY HAVE FACTUALLY, EVIDENTIALLY SUFFERED in about a line.

We've gone from an attitude of 'we've taken your rights, you have no sex based rights, you can't stop us, HAH, sucks to be you!' to one of 'if we tell you how really sad and distressed we are, and how you just don't matter and nothing happened that you get to mind about, will you give us back your spaces and rights?'

It's not in the gift of women here to change the SC judgment even if they wanted to. And why should they?

I know many lovely, safe men; relatives and friends and colleagues. I don't want to undress with any of them. Privacy and dignity from men is something only women who want it can understand, but all the women who do have their sex in common. Likewise safety.The women who don't, very sadly, are only ever one day away from an experience with a man that will change their perspective for a lifetime, and statistically it will happen to so many of them sooner or later.

Men do not matter more than women however they identify. Men do not get to tell women what they are and are not allowed to mind about. And the utter derision and dismissal of anything women feel or say to claim a greater right to the space, to claim that women are cruel and stupid to refuse handing over their bodies and boundaries?

It's very male, and its EXACTLY why women need protections rock solid in law that man cannot break. Because they have no respect for women, they will never see women as having any justifiable needs or feelings, they will never accept a woman saying no to anything about their biology that is wanted, and they see women, at heart, as a resource they have an entitlement to. There will always be deeply sexist people cheering them on, as with this poster, and seeing them as 'brave' in their erasing of any bits of women's reality that they find inconvenient. Women cannot have equality or humanity without tough legal boundaries that men cannot cross, and I'm afraid this emotive appeal proves precisely why.

You will be fine in third spaces. You will be fine with accurate data. You live in a society that involves other people having needs and rights that are equally important to yours.

FloatingSquirrel · 05/05/2025 12:30

Brainworm · 05/05/2025 10:58

Im not saying that sex never needs to be recorded. My point is that where certified sex and/or self identified sex are considered appropriate alternatives to record instead of sex, it seems hard to believe their was sufficient justification for recording sex in the first place.

There was the justification, it was just due to the push for everyone to pretend to believe those people were actually the opposite sex.

FigRollsAlly · 05/05/2025 12:28

Igmum · 05/05/2025 09:46

Sex Matters has a template letter on this to send to Peter Kyle. It takes a few seconds to add your details but it MUST be sent today (Monday 5th) so please make this your Bank Holiday terfing https://sex-matters.org/take-action/write-to-peter-kyle/

Bumping this as it must be done TODAY and is a chance for us all to take action.

Helleofabore · 05/05/2025 12:27

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 12:19

Well why isn't your ire directed at those violent and abusive people then, rather than women standing up for their rights?

When are you telling them that they need to be more kind and compassionate?

I would like to know this too.

Every person I see that comes onto this board to berate, censure and vilify women who are saying ‘no! The law is now clarified it is time to prioritise female people’s needs for single sex provision again’, seems to not ever be able to acknowledge the harm that has been done. And the group who are doing it, but they target us instead.

IHeartHalloumi · 05/05/2025 12:26

IleftmybaginNewportPagnell · 05/05/2025 11:22

Yes I was there and didn’t see that sign or anything aggressive.

Should've gone to Spec-savers - you seem to have missed most of what happened on the day.

It's ironic that women expressing concern that SOME (not all!) trans people & TRAs are women hating violent men &/or men with sexual fetishes was met with...threats of violence against women and men acting out their urine fetishes in public.

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