How to talk to 5yo DS about non-binary / trans teacher

There's no such thing as wrong think. However we all use politenesses to grease the social wheel and it's not impossible to do so. I don't call an obese person fat to their face, though I notice it. I don't scoff at Teresa's boob job and tell her she really has small tits. I don't remind Maureen that her blonde hair is fooling noone and she's really a brunette. I don't laugh at Joan who uses Ms and remind her that really she is married and I will call her Mrs because of that.

People may lose the rights to these niceties if they behave badly and stop deserving my respect.

Your version of being a TRA appears to mean anyone who doesn't fundamentally reject the idea that trans people should be allowed to live the way they want.

If TRA includes thinking a teacher who is quietly getting on with teaching children, not talking about trans rights or their identity or proselytising, should be allowed to say that they feel more comfortable using a name and pronoun that they did not have at birth, and request (not demand nor punish those who make mistakes) these are used, then I probably am one.

I think like Stonewall you are getting ahead of the law if you are advising that it's best practice to out people publically, regardless of their wishes, or insist on "correct" pronouns regardless of the conduct of the trans person in question.

I'd suggest you start with NEU 'advice for trans educators' as this is the basis for many policies. Skip down to the names/pronouns section, and that injunction against 'misgendering' - including by students - is pretty much the wording in many documents.

I hereby give you up as a TRA, though. I hope you continue to dissuade children from wrongthink. I'll keep trying to stop you.

I would like you to link me an example policy from a primary school that makes it clear that infant age children will be punished for "misgendering" a trans or non binary teacher. Shouldn't be hard if you have read dozens.

I use Ms for this very reason. Mx is more about concealing your gender is it not? Except it has the opposite effect - it usually denotes someone who is either trans or non—binary.

Yes, many, many schools took on policies from Stonewall, Mermaids, and the rest and children are not allowed to use the correct, reality-based pronoun in school, for a trans teacher or a trans child. (As if there are trans primary children! What the hell were people thinking?) How many have of these policies have I read? Dozens.

Young children do not misgender anyone. Misgendering itself is made-up, politically-motivated term invented by TRAs. If the children called Mary 'sir' as their norm, that is not misgendering. Calling Mary 'miss' would be incorrectly identifying Mary's sex. It would be taking part in an adult-based lie that they do not understand. The suggestion that children referring to Mary in line with observed reality is somehow wrong - seriously, think it through. That's insane. We are supposed to teach children the truth, and it gets no more real than the reality of their sexed bodies.

Children are not mistaking the teacher for Mum if they call her that. They are simply used to saying Mum when they need help/attention/etc. At no level do they think the teacher is Mum. Your example makes no sense.

The point of calling Mary 'miss' is to confuse children about the nature of Mary's biological reality.

Where your last paragraph comes from I have no idea. I never said that a trans-identified male needed to dress up to access children. My male colleagues undertake the same background checks and safeguarding training that I do.

A trans-identified male who is comfortable with children calling him 'he' and 'sir', in line with reality, poses no extra threat, either. Indeed, it is a refreshing break with societally-enforced gender norms to see a man in a dress. As long as the children know he's a man. And their language is not policed in line with TRA-influenced policy.

Trans people deserve protection in employment, including in schools. This does not give them - or you - the right to demand that children participate in the fantasy that they have changed sex.

Has he (or you) been asked to say anything which is untrue? Do you think he’s unsafe? If not I’d crack on and ignore it l. I would not, however, lie to him or be dishonest.

And I keep reading on here ' oh but we're not transphobic '.... It's infuriating. No one even knows if this teacher is trans and what does it matter if they are,?!

How many trans policies enumerating the ways small children should be punished for "misgendering" a trans or non binary teacher have you read?

FFS 5 year olds call their teachers Mum, Dad, granny, all the time. Most teachers of 5 year olds do not make a fuss about this. Most teachers would only be upset by deliberate "misgendering", for example a parent telling their child to call Mary "Sir" because of they (the parents) political beliefs. I believe the Forstater judgement said something along the lines that deliberate and repetitive misgendering in a work environment (by an adult) would be likely to amount to harassment and against the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

"Mary" was originally "Mike" who dressed in a non conforming way for a number of years. After announcing they would go by "Mary" after the Summer break, they continued to answer to "Mike" or "MikeMary" for a number of years until the children who had known Mike had moved through the school. No one took offence, no one was punished.

Also, no one has to dress up as a woman "in order to" access young children. Males are allowed to teach you know.

I think you are mightily misguided on the trans policies at many schools, which have indeed penalised children for misgendering. How far I'd be interested as a parent depends on the policy at the school and the extent to which Mary minds/does not mind children referring to Mary as he/sir.

Young children will ask about Mary's sex. They will refer to Mary as 'he' on the regular. That's no problem as long Mary is comfortable and open to being correctly referred to as he/him. As he must be, in a primary school.

You are 'being kind' by using preferred pronouns. That is fine for an adult - you understand absolutely the nature of Mary's sex and gender.

Young children do not understand the very adult notion that 'we are all lying about a fundamental fact of Mary's existence.' Young children need a very clear message on sex- it's binary, it's immutable. Because that is true. And it's so very important that we teach children the truth about this basic biological fact.

Mary is a man and we love that Mary dresses and presents as he feels best. He is a man. You may call him sir.

I don't know why so many people are assuming this person is likely a trans woman. Ime people who use Mx are either NB or a trans man

At a population level I can see the point that cartoon is making, and I do think that the radical activists have done a massive disservice to non activists

I don't perceive that every individual trans person is trying to make lesbians have sex with them, get women's awards, use women's changing rooms etc. In my experience most ordinary trans people just want to live in a way that makes sense to them and I don't have a problem with that.

Absolutely respect the agree to disagree thing.

Out of interest, do you disagree with the premise of this illustration @Tummybanana? (Hope image loads. It hasn’t, so posting a random X post with it in)

x.com/hellcatthehater/status/1918983791881679194?s=46

I am fully aware of all that argument, have read "pronouns are rohypnol". I think if you are a rape or SA victim, or speaking of a person who has committed a crime for example, then that person is not worthy of your respect. If you are speaking to or about a law abiding teacher or colleague it's different. You don't have to agree with me and I don't have to agree with you.

@Tummybanana there are a lot of threads here and articles elsewhere that explain why using wrong sex pronouns are far, far from respectful (to the people harmed by gender identity ideology).

Do take a look at this article https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

My DC has a non-passing transwoman teaching assistant at their primary school. This teaching assistant didn't go around preaching transgender ideology, they just got on and did their job. All the kids realised that Mary was born male but felt happier using the name Mary. They also have a teacher at secondary school who is a transman. They didn't even notice.

I think anyone moving a 5 year old because of a person who isn't even fully identifying into the opposite sex (they aren't claiming to be "miss") who could be an excellent teacher is prejudiced tbh. They are no more being subjected to ideology being taught by a gender non confirming person than they are being taught by a Muslim or a Christian Scientist or a vegan. As long as the person isn't proselytising in class just living as you want to is fine imo.

I know a lot of people here will disagree with me but I see using a preferred name and pronoun as respectful, it doesn't imply I share that belief. Just like I wouldn't feed alcohol or pork to a Muslim, even though I don't share those beliefs.

If it turns out that the teacher is a trans-identified man:

First, ask the school for their policy and planning about teaching this topic. Ask the head what s/he thinks you should say when (not if) ds asks if Mx Smith is a man.

Consider whether you agree or disagree with the answers given by the head.

I would treat this as I would children being taught a religious belief as reality. You tell your child the truth, always, simply, in direct, child-friendly terms. Mx Smith is a man. Some men like to pretend to be women. To those men, pretending is super important and they feel sad when people call them men. We don't want Mx Smith to feel sad. But he is a man.

For the head: Mx Smith is an adult. If reality offends Mx Smith, he needs to deal with that himself because ds is a child.

Yawn.

No one is talking about genitals. We are talking about how to discuss, with a 5 year old, a harmful and illogical belief system that is being foisted on him by adults who the OP has trusted to care for her child.

I would tend to say what I said to my 10 year old about an older son of a friend who goes by "they". He thinks he isn't a boy or a girl but we know everyone is a boy or a girl (or a man or a lady) so it's just a bit silly.
I don't care if my child is told off for calling an adult or another child silly for thinking this.

Shouldn't you be more concerned with whether the teacher is actually good at teaching and interacting with the students rather than what's between their legs?

Euro - what do you mean by ‘freaked out’? That suggests an irrational response. What’s actually happened is that they aren’t allowed to comment or they’ll be in huge trouble. They can’t point out any unfairness with male kids in girls spaces / sports. Many schools take this way more seriously than issues such as bullying, SA, disrupting lessons, violence…

Its gonna be a minefield.

What I mean is it just washes over them. They don’t get freaked out over it. It’s just normal to them that people may identify as what they like.

Nope.

Two young teens in our house.

They believe it's all a load of bollocks and that you can't change sex.