Does anyone else feel disheartened?

I don't know. The gender side seem to be be in a tailspin of fury and hysteria. There is such shock from them that their insistence on feels over facts and anyone disagreeing is a bigot deserving of punishment has been roundly disagreed with. There is such hypocrisy on their side too- apparently they are the peaceful and vulnerable ones just wanting to live their lives, but it's their protests that see people encouraging violence, toting signs about pissing on and burning terfs. I don't think they realised that the default position for humanity is that sex is real and there is a limit to how much people can be forced to pretend it isn't.

Well quite. Have a word with bluegoldflow in that case.

This is about the pushback you're getting, not us.

I don't think a single one of my (mostly female) friends is not a survivor of some form of serious sexual, familial and/or domestic abuse, including me. That's what you fail to understand about the Queer community. We've nearly all of us had to choose life at some point. We know all about safety, consent and boundaries, because we have to. And as such, we recognise these qualities in each other and draw together in the face of a hostile world. You're only fooling yourself if you write us off as lacking humanity or respect, or weak.

Transphobes exploit trauma, the LGBT community is a refuge from it. That's why you'll never be rid of us. We're people bonded by our shared humanity and grief, and you continually fail to recognise that, much less respect it. The pushback you are getting is from those that DO recognise our humanity. They do not recognise the crude caricatures and fearmongering stereotypes that you're so determined to sell us as.

It's when you say stuff like "trans contagion" that you sound less like you have simple concerns for women's safety, dignity and privacy, but more like a zealous moral crusade to eradicate all traces of trans from society, medicine and law. That's the point when bullying a vulnerable minority becomes obvious to the average neutral person, I'm guessing.

We don't need or want to hear about your boners.

I agree, the majority of people is behind the ruling so it will be accepted.

I've never been able to sing but .... would a women's choir that included transwomen (illegally unless other men could also join) demand that a transwomen out himself by singing basso profundo?

I thought women's choirs sang music written or arranged for women's voices. And that was the point of them. If you want to sing alongside basso profundo voices you'd join a mixed choir.

(Edited for mis-sexing. Honestly, my poor brain!)

@MadBadDaddy My community choir is also mostly women.
I wouldn't have a problem with a transwoman joining because it isn't set up as a female only choir. As long as you sang in the section suitable for your voice of course, which in our choir would probably be 'middles' which contains both women and men.

You’re choirs probably being so lovely and supportive as it’s very hard to find a woman able to sing basso profundo so they turn a blind eye to the womanface and repeat the mantra so you don’t leave and they are without a bass

Females and rape survivors like me needing safe female only single sex bathrooms and spaces as you dehumanise it as 'toilet ban' and 'ridiculous' and 'authoritarian' is the most basic civil human right the female sex class has. You spitting on this is exactly why trans are getting pushback. Yet you still can't see it. Overreach and a lack of humanity and respect for females is and will be the undoing of the trans contagion.

This is something I wonder about. It seems that the view of the genpub is shifting, in terms of responses to suchlike posts; reaction from women and men seem to show strong support for the SC generally, keeping men out of women's sports, etc. but how much of that is just TRAs retreating into the woodwork a bit? After all, it's affirmation they want. And how much is algorithms? I dunno.

Facebook's relentless promotion of 'pages you have no interest in' meant that a Channel 4 news post landed in my feed today, about the FA rule change. Like/love to grr/cry reactions were running at about 5 to 1. And a quick scan down the comments showed that any 'but the poor vulnerable TW just want to play' replies were being given a robust course in the biological reality of mixed contact sports, women's entitlement to fair sport at all levels, and a reminder that any TW wanting to play could do so in the men's teams or form their own.

It doesn’t surprise me at all. IME, there’s a big cross over between the “Look at me, I’m a WITCH, LOOK I’M SO VERY DIFFERENT AND SPECIAL” crowd, and those of a blue-haired non-binary persuasion.

It all gets right on my Wicca - to me the very essence of paganism and witchcraft is its down-to-earthness, literally.

Granny Weatherwax wouldn’t have any truck with this nonsense.

enjoyment BDSM and Magick

Interesting that they mentioned BDSM because (a) you'd think that practitioners of a religion founded on a goddess and her consort would have a more egalitarian view of women, at least in public, and (b) ...

Its a very sketchy scene, lots of male posers hyping themselves up as a way to attract easily manipulated young women.

The kink scene also matches this description perfectly.

You spit on a lot of good women when you spit on my life. It never lands though.

Personal interactions don't change the view we have of the ideology. I would never challenge a trans woman in a woman's space. There was a trans woman using my David Lloyd changing room for a while. And while I could see their humanity and wish them no harm, I simply don't accept that they had a right to be there.

Yes, disheartened. The WI, Girl Guides have shown no loyalty. Most people still dare not voice their true opinions- I am one of them. I work with a transwoman, have a family member who is trans, another colleague who is avidly encouraging her 11 year old son in his desire to identify as a girl, and we are all walking on eggshells re. these people (who are nothing worse than boring/self absorbed and determined to be heard-not in the least aggressive). It seems that their views can be spoken, but people disagreeing can't say a word.

"Why are we getting pushback?" you complain...so I've told you. You cope with that information by quickly rewriting my mundane little life as a woman into some elaborate toxic nightmare for me and everyone in it, requiring exhausting levels of sulking and coercion, etc. just to keep the clown car on the road. For several years now.

It's all so at odds with my observable reality. Again, this is why the pushback. You're describing a recognised community of people with such 1-dimensional, dehumanising rhetoric and smart people see through that, and currently there's a lot more of it about to see, as none of you can keep a lid on it.

Interesting, I attended various occult and pagan talks and groups a few years ago when I was doing my masters in London and I happened to mention to the lovely man who ran an astrology bookshop in Bloomsbury that I was attending a talk on banishing rituals. He then warned me that that scene was full of predatory men and to be careful who I got mixed up with. In my case my interest in esoteric studies was purely academic and I had not interest in middle aged men who promised me they could coach me in high magick and several did try to pick me up with that kind of chat. I think two prominent male magicians openly discussed their enjoyment BDSM and Magick on a lecture I watched on Treadwell's recently.

Its a very sketchy scene, lots of male posers hyping themselves up as a way to attract easily manipulated young women.

It doesn't surprise me at all. Most of "wicca" and related types of neopaganism has a huge problem with men wanting to abuse the rituals to shag pretty young women. There's a lot of misogyny amongst male practitioners. The Dianic tradition is the only one free of this.

HRT is quite effective at ending "boners". Not as much as SRS though!

We remain integrated in our various communities whether they are gendered or not, LGBT or not. None of that has changed. My community choir (mostly women), for example, have been lovely and supportive and also decried the "toilet ban" as ridiculous and authoritarian.

That's why you're getting pushback. We don't have to "make up stories" about people liking us and accepting us.

Transgender men & women have careers, families and businesses. Those that know us, know that we are mostly ordinary people. They easily see through the grotesque fetish-objects you so eagerly paint us to be (either victim or predator, as purpose serves). We are never portrayed as our loved ones see us - happy, healthy members of society, contributing to their community. You won't even pretend to respect a community of people dealing with a lifelong medical condition and seeking the best care. Instead you turn us into the utter dregs of humanity, which is evidently ridiculous. Well, that's your loss. Many people gain a lot from knowing us.

I’m remembering too that the Red Tent movement, based on women sharing a safe and sociable space (originally while menstruating), started letting transwomen in. Which negated the whole idea really.

Blimey! That does surprise me. The only witches I’ve met worshipped a god and goddess, with women having the same status as men.

That was long before the trans stuff started. But with their belief in natural forces, I can’t see them wanting trans-identifying people messing up the female or male energy.

But on the other hand, maybe a belief in magicky things could easily embrace a belief in ‘wrong bodies’ and ‘men with ladybrains’ etc. I’d be rather sad, as the witch world seemed a friendly place for women.

My disappointment is that all the coverage has centred the ‘pain’ of trans people who’ve lost nothing that wasn’t theirs to begin with, and virtually no sympathy for girls and women who have had genuine and real fears for their safety, dignity, reputations and livelihoods.

I can only assume that there is a younger generation who have been brought up on #bekind bollocks and take freedoms for granted so much so that they are not even cognisant of what an existential fight this has been.