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Original poster

Thank You from a Trans Lurker

560 replies

Seethlaw · 01/05/2025 16:42

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

OP posts:
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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/05/2025 17:55

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:59

There's a hatred of trans women on here, it's as simple as that @FreezeDriedStrawberries. It's there in every thread no matter how much they might deny it. It doesn't matter how respectful they might be. No point in saying any different

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Not being willing to pretend they are women doesn't mean we hate them.

Whereas it is clear that many of them do actually hate us. Where's your anger and disapproval about that?

Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 17:49

rebmacesrevda · 13/05/2025 17:36

@Seethlaw
Would you recommend Transmania? I tried to find an English translation to no avail. I gather UK publishers wouldn't touch it!

The ten commandments remind me of a lecture I watched, about gender ideology being a method of instigating a transhumanist revolution. Sounds mental, but I think we departed from sanity a long time ago. I'll have a look for a link to the video...

Oh, absolutely, I wholeheartedly recommend it! I read it in a single free day, even though it's 350+ pages long, because it's really fascinating, like an unending train wreck.

My only concern would be that I'm not sure how much someone who's been on MN for a while would learn from it? I already knew much of what's in the first part, which takes up about half of the book, but I immensely appreciate having everything in one place.

The second part talks about the international TRA lobby and was a total eye-opener to me. And yes, in the third part, they discuss among other things what you mention, "about gender ideology being a method of instigating a transhumanist revolution", and it's totally mental indeed, but apparently some people are serious about it.

Oh, and of course it centres France quite a bit, but there's still a whole lot of references to other countries. Maya Forstater for example gets a couple of mentions, among several other names I'm used to reading about around here.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 13/05/2025 17:49

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2025 16:23

It's disappointing that an interesting and respectful thread is getting posters who seem determined to try and insist that everyone here is actually hateful. It's almost like they're angry that people are not performing in accordance with the strawmen they've created.

What is interesting is that of course, female people who have transgender identities are included in feminism because they are female people and have need of benefits of feminist campaigning. It is often ignored that those people should be contributing to these threads.

What is also ignored is the male people who start threads or contribute on this board about them accessing female single sex provisions is them transgressing into a feminist space. It is still a feminist board. Too often their posts cross into demands for access to those provisions or attempts at emotionally manipulating feminists to include them.

rebmacesrevda · 13/05/2025 17:36

@Seethlaw
Would you recommend Transmania? I tried to find an English translation to no avail. I gather UK publishers wouldn't touch it!

The ten commandments remind me of a lecture I watched, about gender ideology being a method of instigating a transhumanist revolution. Sounds mental, but I think we departed from sanity a long time ago. I'll have a look for a link to the video...

Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 17:34

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2025 16:23

It's disappointing that an interesting and respectful thread is getting posters who seem determined to try and insist that everyone here is actually hateful. It's almost like they're angry that people are not performing in accordance with the strawmen they've created.

I used to be on the other side, where I needed to believe that Mumsnet was a hive of villainy, and everyone on it was just a big bad transphobe. I have no doubt that a thread like this one would have created a huge amount of cognitive dissonance, and I would have been desperate to solve it with any explanation.

Plus, well, I'm a trans man, and TRAs are all about centering trans women, so GC people being nice to a trans man doesn't really prove anything, you know? Same old...

OP posts:
potpourree · 13/05/2025 17:30

I suggest taking the OP's lead and not engaging with poor attempts at starting a bunfight.

Thanks for the French links - will read up on them.

Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 17:28

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:59

There's a hatred of trans women on here, it's as simple as that @FreezeDriedStrawberries. It's there in every thread no matter how much they might deny it. It doesn't matter how respectful they might be. No point in saying any different

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Two trans women spoke up in this very thread, and were not received with hatred. How do you explain that?

OP posts:
Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 17:26

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:55

I'm not sure you could explain why you feel like a man either to everyone's satisfaction to be honest.

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You're adding "to everyone's satisfaction" out of nowhere. I never asked that from Beatrice.

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 13/05/2025 17:18

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 17:17

No, I just read a lot more of the threads on here and felt disgusted at the attitudes displayed. If you want to pretend it's not there that's fine.

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Gonna show some examples?

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 17:17

NotmeMother · 13/05/2025 16:24

Poor old Pony boy/girl is so desperate for conflict.

There was a point PheobesPony when you seemed to be getting it, when the kind, patient women of FWR along with our visiting transfolk were explaining to you and each other, their viewpoints. What happened? Did you get a smacked arse from your HQ and told to do better to stir the pot?

How about you calm yourself down, listen to the respectful conversation going on and perhaps learn something.

Edited

No, I just read a lot more of the threads on here and felt disgusted at the attitudes displayed. If you want to pretend it's not there that's fine.

Feelingmuchbetter · 13/05/2025 16:36

We are a decent forum, decent women. We don’t need to rise to the bait, and lower ourselves or the thread in any way. The higher ground is where we will always be.

NotmeMother · 13/05/2025 16:24

Poor old Pony boy/girl is so desperate for conflict.

There was a point PheobesPony when you seemed to be getting it, when the kind, patient women of FWR along with our visiting transfolk were explaining to you and each other, their viewpoints. What happened? Did you get a smacked arse from your HQ and told to do better to stir the pot?

How about you calm yourself down, listen to the respectful conversation going on and perhaps learn something.

ArabellaScott · 13/05/2025 16:23

It's disappointing that an interesting and respectful thread is getting posters who seem determined to try and insist that everyone here is actually hateful. It's almost like they're angry that people are not performing in accordance with the strawmen they've created.

lechiffre55 · 13/05/2025 16:08

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:59

There's a hatred of trans women on here, it's as simple as that @FreezeDriedStrawberries. It's there in every thread no matter how much they might deny it. It doesn't matter how respectful they might be. No point in saying any different

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So make your point by provding a link or two. I think you can link to individual posts here. Show a few posts where a trans woman gets treated badly who doesn't either start trouble, or, for their actions outside this place deserve harsh criticism.

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:59

FreezeDriedStrawberries · 13/05/2025 13:50

It's not just "getting a better reception" though, is it?
It's usually "I say as I see, I can't be expected to mis sex someone, it's not natural" etc
It's the double standards.

There's a hatred of trans women on here, it's as simple as that @FreezeDriedStrawberries. It's there in every thread no matter how much they might deny it. It doesn't matter how respectful they might be. No point in saying any different

PhoebesPony · 13/05/2025 15:55

Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 12:12

"To feel like I'm a girl... I'm unable to explain it."

It's sad when they outright admit to the fact that nobody pushed them to examine those feelings, to put words on them, because it proves that they didn't get the psychological help they needed before maybe transitioning.

Unless of course, Beatrice could explain it, but it wouldn't be very palatable...

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I'm not sure you could explain why you feel like a man either to everyone's satisfaction to be honest.

Naepalz · 13/05/2025 15:20

FreezeDriedStrawberries · 13/05/2025 13:17

Have to agree with @PhoebesPony where they say trans men getting an easier time of it on here and not outright hostility which it would be for trans women who comment/start threads but are respectful.
I mean, I've never seen the level of referring to as "he" to someone who is trans like in this post and others.
If it was a trans woman, it would be "he" all round , no way would they get "she" throughout.

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Respect is a 2 way street. I'm always happy to be respectful of someone who is respectful of me and doesn't scream abuse, threaten or name call.

Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 14:18

lechiffre55 · 13/05/2025 13:49

@Seethlaw
Late to your thread, but loving reading your perspective thank you.
Like any group of people made up of individuals my brain knows that not all trans people are the same. But sometimes with who screams the loudest it's hard to see that.
If anything my brain says trans people as a group should have a wider range of personalities within their group than almost any other grouping of people. Not everyone is the same. I know there are trans people who just want to live their lives respectfully and be equally respected back. It's so refreshing to hear you speak. By speaking calmly here you will achieve far more in terms of representing trans people and sharing mutual understanding than the people who come to scream and call us names.
I'm sort of sad that things have become so confrontational in general, but to me that just means the loudest have risen to the top. I don't think they are like, or represent the quieter people below.

Could I ask a question please? I don't have any experience of what it's like to be trans. Your calmness here, where others like to come to scream, makes me think you might be a calm person internally, possibly good at reasoning too. My question is this. Has being a calm person helped you navigate your journey with less difficulty than other trans people in your opinion?

@Seethlaw I hope your find what you are looking for in your journey, and while all journeys have ups and downs I hope your journey has far more ups than downs. We might seem like a scary bunch here, but we do really appreciate respect, good faith, and honesty. Thank you for coming to talk to us.

@lechiffre55

First, thank you for the well wishes :)

"Has being a calm person helped you navigate your journey with less difficulty than other trans people in your opinion?"

Oh, definitely!

For example, being calmer means being more able to reach inside and examine my feelings. I'm not afraid of what I might find. I'm not afraid that it might not be what I thought or what I'm told it should be.

In turn, this means not being so vulnerable to outside opinions. I've examined myself, so I don't need validation from the outside, not even from other trans people or activists. And if they tell me I'm wrong to think this or that way, I can take it as their opinion and let it go. If I'm different from every other trans person, so be it.

It also means not being interested in drama, whether received or created by myself. Too many trans people are so high-strung that every interaction becomes a potential battlefield, and every incident becomes a full-blown transphobic attack. That's no way to live!

It also means being more patient, more tolerant of delays and mishaps, less hyper-focused on what I want, more capable of dealing with disappointment when things don't go as I hoped - and more capable of finding solutions to problems too. When I was attending support groups, I was sometimes baffled by some others who were so emotional that they seemed to find it impossible to deal with little molehills.

I've had a few comments at work, from people who had dealt with far more emotional trans people in the past, and who were relieved that I was taking it more calmly and matter-of-factly. In my experience, I've found that people tend to react to how we project. Defensive trans people tend to create nervousness in the people they interact with. Aggressive trans people tend to create defensiveness. Calm trans people tend to create openness and willingness - so calm I try to be.

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 13/05/2025 14:07

When someone treats me with respect, I try and be respectful back.
When someone acts like a knob( deliberate choice of word ), I can be rude back.
I think most people behave similarly.
It is double standards, but its brought on by the other person's behaviour.
To treat someone like a knob and expect them to be respectful back is deluded.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/05/2025 14:06

Actually I should really say "Whether or not to extend courtesy should be a subjective choice, and when it's not, there's an underlying power play going on".

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/05/2025 14:03

FreezeDriedStrawberries · 13/05/2025 13:50

It's not just "getting a better reception" though, is it?
It's usually "I say as I see, I can't be expected to mis sex someone, it's not natural" etc
It's the double standards.

I'll have to reread the thread to be sure but a couple of thoughts:

  1. t's not a hive mind - are you sure it's the same people and not the collective FWR "you" that seems to live rent free in so.e people's heads?
  1. OP already said she accepts female language in this context
  1. Whether or not to extend courtesy is a subjective choice, and people who extend respect tend to get it back. If someone's objection to cross sex language is the mental load (and FWIW mine is not, it's the legal, political and social impact of losing sex specific language and condoning sexist beliefs) it's not "double standards" for them to make more of an effort for people who they feel have earned respect.
WarriorN · 13/05/2025 14:02

Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 13:41

Nothing you don't already know, I'm afraid. And to be clear, they are the 10 Commandments of GI, ie. the techniques TRAs use - not the 10 Commandments of GC people. They put them right within a few pages of the beginning of the book, with a short explanation under each, written from TRAs' point of view. Even for me, who already knew about those techniques, it was quite the slap in the face to see them plainly exposed like this. As we say in French, "elles n'y vont pas avec le dos de la cuillère," (they don't pull their punches).

I'll give them in the original French, and then my own translation (note that I'm no translator...)

  1. "Une femme trans est une femme", tu répèteras.
  2. Le genre deviendra roi et le sexe, tu aboliras.
  3. L'autodétermination, tu prôneras.
  4. Dans le mauvais corps, tu naîtras.
  5. La rhétorique de l'inversion, tu maîtriseras.
  6. La terreur, tu sèmeras.
  7. Les espaces des femmes, tu coloniseras.
  8. Homophobe, tu seras, "les lesbiennes aiment les pénis", tu martèleras.
  9. Les enfants, tu vampiriseras.
  10. Dans toutes les sphères de la société, tu t'infiltreras.

And my translation:

  1. "Trans women are women," thou shalt repeat.
  2. Gender shall become king, and sex thou shalt abolish.
  3. Self-id thou shalt preach.
  4. In the wrong body, thou shalt be born.
  5. Inversion rhetoric, thou shalt master.
  6. Terror, thou shalt sow.
  7. Women's spaces, thou shalt colonise.
  8. Homophobic, thou shalt be; "lesbians like penises," thou shalt hammer in.
  9. Children, thou shalt vampirise.
  10. Every sphere of society, thou shalt infiltrate.
Edited
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Interesting, thanks

Helleofabore · 13/05/2025 14:01

I had thought early on it was established that seethlaw had said that they were not going to expect he/him language. Maybe I missed that part.

Oh, and there has been a distinct lack of accusations about being bigots and hateful and controlling language. But also, as a female person who is not making accusations of hatefulness and who supports aspects and discusses aspect of feminism, why would this thread attract negative reactions?

Original poster
Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 13:53

I'm not sure what your point is, @FreezeDriedStrawberries ? You come on here, of course you expect to be sexed, not gendered. If some people actually gendered me, then of course I'm flattered, but I certainly wouldn't expect it.

I haven't read the thread you refer to, but I'm not sure what you mean by bringing it up at all?

OP posts:
FreezeDriedStrawberries · 13/05/2025 13:50

It's not just "getting a better reception" though, is it?
It's usually "I say as I see, I can't be expected to mis sex someone, it's not natural" etc
It's the double standards.