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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thank You from a Trans Lurker

560 replies

Seethlaw · 01/05/2025 16:42

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience!

I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF".

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman".

Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people.

Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals.

Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

OP posts:
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TroubledWatersTW · 14/05/2025 17:25

Seethlaw · 13/05/2025 14:18

@lechiffre55

First, thank you for the well wishes :)

"Has being a calm person helped you navigate your journey with less difficulty than other trans people in your opinion?"

Oh, definitely!

For example, being calmer means being more able to reach inside and examine my feelings. I'm not afraid of what I might find. I'm not afraid that it might not be what I thought or what I'm told it should be.

In turn, this means not being so vulnerable to outside opinions. I've examined myself, so I don't need validation from the outside, not even from other trans people or activists. And if they tell me I'm wrong to think this or that way, I can take it as their opinion and let it go. If I'm different from every other trans person, so be it.

It also means not being interested in drama, whether received or created by myself. Too many trans people are so high-strung that every interaction becomes a potential battlefield, and every incident becomes a full-blown transphobic attack. That's no way to live!

It also means being more patient, more tolerant of delays and mishaps, less hyper-focused on what I want, more capable of dealing with disappointment when things don't go as I hoped - and more capable of finding solutions to problems too. When I was attending support groups, I was sometimes baffled by some others who were so emotional that they seemed to find it impossible to deal with little molehills.

I've had a few comments at work, from people who had dealt with far more emotional trans people in the past, and who were relieved that I was taking it more calmly and matter-of-factly. In my experience, I've found that people tend to react to how we project. Defensive trans people tend to create nervousness in the people they interact with. Aggressive trans people tend to create defensiveness. Calm trans people tend to create openness and willingness - so calm I try to be.

I'm really sorry, all I ever seem to post is saying "I feel the same as @Seethlaw!" but it's such a novelty for me to hear from a trans person who is so similar to me that I feel the need to keep doing it😅

Yes, interestingly I've also always been able to keep calm when those around me seem not to be able to, and similar to what Seethlaw says, I'm not so bothered what others think of me. I guess with people of our personality type with gender dysphoria, transition is a bit more of a pragmatic choice; I certainly viewed it as a trade-off to 'solve' some of my issues whilst creating others, and I went in not expecting those around me to actually 'go along with it' socially. It has completely shocked me how many people in my life have seemingly accepted the transition wholesale.

I don't know if it's just different personality types, or different types of dysphoria, but there really do seem to be some very different categories amongst the trans-identifying population.

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 17:15

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 16:28

I'm talking about the way trans women are spoken about in the threads - if non of you can see it you must be blind. That was my point. I look forward to not seeing it anymore if everyone is so convinced it's not happening. That's all I'm going to say.

I'm sure many of us would be happy to discuss most things (when relevant to the thread), were you to provide some examples.

Repeatedly asserting something doesn't make it true. If there's one thing women on this board respond well to, it's evidence and reasoned arguments. In my experience.

If you can't offer either, and are just vaguely scolding, I'm afraid you won't get very far.

Helleofabore · 14/05/2025 17:08

I think that if someone declares that a male person is not longer a male person and that it is offensive to use this accurate language, then of course they are always going to over exaggerate how male people with transgender identities are spoken about.

They are certainly not about to accept the potential motivations for demanding to access female spaces being spoken about.

Remember there has now been numerous extreme transgender activists stating under oath that there is no way to discuss topics such as excluding male people from female provisions even if only accepted language is used. That feels pretty close to what we are seeing here.

That unless some poster’s personal standard of language is used, it is just to be dismissed as being hate and transphobic.

I am sure readers are watching this thread now and seeing the interaction. The hyperbole being used to disrupt the thread while censuring other people’s language. While not engaging in the discussion in any meaningful way.

If they have been on MN and social media watching similar discussions, they will see it. The demand for complying to language and belief. All while then somehow claiming to be not allowed to post. Hypocrisy and hyperbole.

IButtleSir · 14/05/2025 17:00

Seethlaw · 02/05/2025 08:50

Thank you for the good wishes!

"OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here."

I highly doubt that. To be more precise: I highly doubt that a transwoman would be torn to shreds JUST for being a transwoman. People would be wary, yes, and she would be made highly aware that she is a man in a place mostly populated by women, but I don't see why she would automatically be rejected.

"Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter."

Did you see me barging in claiming to be a man? No, I didn't. That's the difference with all the transwomen I've seen coming on here so far: I accept my biological reality. I am a biological woman and I'm not afraid to own it. A transwoman is a biological man and they need to own it as well.

" I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her."

I expect to be called she/her. I accept that on this forum, people call you by your sex, not your gender.

" I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange."

I don't. In my experience, transmen are far more likely to be respectful of other people's opinions and of the law, while transwomen are far more likely to be entirely self-centered and demand that other people twist themselves around them, even in their own spaces. That this creates a huge different in how transmen and transwomen are received is only natural.

"You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex"

That is utterly impossible. I'm a biological woman and I'll always be a biological woman. I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man (and because it fits my own apprehension of my body better, but that's entirely personal.)

"No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman."

What would they challenge me on?

"But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice."

People here have shown nothing but respect for my feelings of gender dysphoria, so yes it would be nice if in return transwomen showed respect for the fact that they'll never be biological women.

" would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women."

Why would they, when there are at least two massive differences between the two categories? One is a biological fact: transwomen are men demanding access to women's spaces, while transmen present no threat to women. The other is one of attitude: I'm not the only transman around here, and all of us accept to play by the rules of the place (for example: to be sexed, not gendered), while transwomen typically don't.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Just because both are fruits, doesn't mean they are the same. People around here show me respect because I showed them respect first. Let transwomen do the same and they'll see they can be respected too. In fact, I bet a lot of people here would love to hear from a transwoman who would explain her situation in a reasonable manner, and who would show that she understands why so many women are wary of her and don't want transwomen in their spaces.

This is SUCH an excellent post. You are very articulate, @Seethlaw. Thank you for coming on to MN and sharing your perspective.

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/05/2025 16:54

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 16:28

I'm talking about the way trans women are spoken about in the threads - if non of you can see it you must be blind. That was my point. I look forward to not seeing it anymore if everyone is so convinced it's not happening. That's all I'm going to say.

Transwomen are men...if that is what you mean?

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 16:53

@MoistVonL

"I’m very much want to hear from ‘s sister, she sounds a really interesting woman. How about it, OP? Can you persuade your sister to join us vipers?"

Ah, sorry, not a chance. She doesn't master English well enough to express herself, and even on French-speaking forums, she's typically a lurker. Sorry again. Though if you have specific questions, I can try asking her?

OP posts:
FlakyCritic · 14/05/2025 16:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 16:43

murasaki · 14/05/2025 16:17

Interesting. Totally non trans related but more on the Muslim women lines, I remember being shocked that in the Paris Olympics, it was fine for athletes from other countries to wear sporting hijabs, but not French athletes. There's a very good player in the WNBA who couldn't play for the French basketball team as they wouldn't allow her hijab as the Olympics counted as a public/civic event, but the others could.

Yeah, that's the sort of things I meant. France really has a tense historical relationship with religion (all religions, religion in general), and there's a real struggle about how to deal with religion in public spaces.

OP posts:
murasaki · 14/05/2025 16:38

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 16:28

I'm talking about the way trans women are spoken about in the threads - if non of you can see it you must be blind. That was my point. I look forward to not seeing it anymore if everyone is so convinced it's not happening. That's all I'm going to say.

If you think the way transwomen are spoken about rudely here, it in no way compares to the awful death threats, misogyny and general abuse spoken about women on other SM platforms. It's not just not in the same ball park, it's not even the same sport.

Respect has to be earned, not freely granted to space invaders who suggest that women should die in a grease fire.

Once the perfectly legal rules are obeyed, as they always should have been, maybe everything can become a little more neutral.

MoistVonL · 14/05/2025 16:29

I’m very much want to hear from @Seethlaw ‘s sister, she sounds a really interesting woman. How about it, OP? Can you persuade your sister to join us vipers?

@PhoebesPony - you have made a lot of accusations on this thread. At the start you disputed the actions of numerous transwomen and were given evidence to support our statements. You seemed open to looking at the picture more broadly.

Since then you’ve just hectored, castigated and accused the posters on this board of hate and prejudice. That’s not having a discussion, it’s telling us off.

We may not know you, but you certainly don’t know us.

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 16:28

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 13:58

@PhoebesPony

What about the two trans women who posted on this thread? How do you explain that they were treated courteously? What difference do you see between them and those who are not received as graciously?

I'm talking about the way trans women are spoken about in the threads - if non of you can see it you must be blind. That was my point. I look forward to not seeing it anymore if everyone is so convinced it's not happening. That's all I'm going to say.

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 16:18

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 15:27

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of TRAs and allies think they've reached their position through reason. They just don't realise that they've fallen into fallacies. Fallacies sound reasonable on the surface, so you think you're being reasonable when you fall for them - and you take anyone who disagrees with you as the one who hasn't thought things through.

I'm not an activist or an ally for goodness sake, just an ordinary person.I just have an opinion that most of you don't agree with even though I see on many threads the mocking and derision. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable that I don't agree with you on everything and I'm sorry for pointing out things you don't want to hear. You're all accusing me of wanting to derail or that I'm a troll, I'm non of those things. I've been on here quite a while and usually just read and don't comment. You should be able to take someone else's point of view without saying I'm not genuine and all the rest of it because that's just not true. I won't comment any more since it is obviously unwelcome. But I still have a right to my views, and frankly you don't know anything about me.

murasaki · 14/05/2025 16:17

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 16:11

Life's... interesting. I'm learning a lot about other kinds of trans people and about the trans lobby, and I'm very unhappy about it all, especially where children and young people are concerned.

Also, I'm confusing the hell out of my sister by calling myself a transmasculine woman :D (We've been having long discussions about all this.)

Honestly, I doubt there would be much here that you wouldn't have had first, because as a rule, we follow the trends a few years behind the US/UK. Maybe things relating to Muslim women's life? We have a very strict separation of church and state, and it's causing some problems for some Muslim women and girls. But I really can't talk much about it; my sister would be the one who would know, not me.

Interesting. Totally non trans related but more on the Muslim women lines, I remember being shocked that in the Paris Olympics, it was fine for athletes from other countries to wear sporting hijabs, but not French athletes. There's a very good player in the WNBA who couldn't play for the French basketball team as they wouldn't allow her hijab as the Olympics counted as a public/civic event, but the others could.

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 16:11

potpourree · 14/05/2025 15:52

We did have threads on a semi-ongoing basis that were discussing the best way to deal with community disruptors - might be worth revisiting for those who missed it.

Anyway, good to get the discussion back on track. How's life generally, OP? Are there any feminist issues where you are that maybe the UK wouldn't be aware of?

Life's... interesting. I'm learning a lot about other kinds of trans people and about the trans lobby, and I'm very unhappy about it all, especially where children and young people are concerned.

Also, I'm confusing the hell out of my sister by calling myself a transmasculine woman :D (We've been having long discussions about all this.)

Honestly, I doubt there would be much here that you wouldn't have had first, because as a rule, we follow the trends a few years behind the US/UK. Maybe things relating to Muslim women's life? We have a very strict separation of church and state, and it's causing some problems for some Muslim women and girls. But I really can't talk much about it; my sister would be the one who would know, not me.

OP posts:
potpourree · 14/05/2025 15:53

(Hilarious as it is to see a be-kind-er get stroppy because we're NOT mocking someone!)

potpourree · 14/05/2025 15:52

We did have threads on a semi-ongoing basis that were discussing the best way to deal with community disruptors - might be worth revisiting for those who missed it.

Anyway, good to get the discussion back on track. How's life generally, OP? Are there any feminist issues where you are that maybe the UK wouldn't be aware of?

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 15:40

And a reminder to posters in general- MN delete for troll hunting.

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 15:39

Emotive reasoning can obscure critical thinking.

Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 15:37

lechiffre55 · 14/05/2025 15:22

I think the derail is deliberate.
The comments are definitely not in good faith.
My gut feeling is it's an attempt to stop the good faith comminication between MN and the OP @Seethlaw because I think it challenges the holy narrative.
I've reached my "stop interacting with and giving them the attention they so desperately want" phase.

"My gut feeling is it's an attempt to stop the good faith comminication between MN and the OP because I think it challenges the holy narrative."

Very possible, yes, and we've already seen the backup tactic when that failed: "Well, you're a trans man, and MN only has it in for trans women". And that's also why the participation and non-rejection of two trans women in this thread is outright ignored, because it cannot be reconciled or explained away at all.

It's sad. I know that it's scary to acknowledge that your beliefs are wrong and based on faulty reasoning. I've had to go through this several times in my life, so really, I know. But I also know that it's much less of a struggle to accept the simple truth than to keep trying to hold a bunch of falsehoods together through artificial means and cognitive dissonance. Ah well.

OP posts:
Seethlaw · 14/05/2025 15:27

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 15:11

If people have already decided that women on here are the worst kind of people, and are determined to state that over and over, and will not post any evidence of their assertions there's really no point in trying to disabuse them.

It only becomes a derail. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of TRAs and allies think they've reached their position through reason. They just don't realise that they've fallen into fallacies. Fallacies sound reasonable on the surface, so you think you're being reasonable when you fall for them - and you take anyone who disagrees with you as the one who hasn't thought things through.

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 14/05/2025 15:22

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 15:11

If people have already decided that women on here are the worst kind of people, and are determined to state that over and over, and will not post any evidence of their assertions there's really no point in trying to disabuse them.

It only becomes a derail. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

I think the derail is deliberate.
The comments are definitely not in good faith.
My gut feeling is it's an attempt to stop the good faith comminication between MN and the OP @Seethlaw because I think it challenges the holy narrative.
I've reached my "stop interacting with and giving them the attention they so desperately want" phase.

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2025 15:11

If people have already decided that women on here are the worst kind of people, and are determined to state that over and over, and will not post any evidence of their assertions there's really no point in trying to disabuse them.

It only becomes a derail. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Helleofabore · 14/05/2025 14:51

I think there is a fucking significant difference between someone fucking swearing in a post vs someone saying ‘you fucking X’!

One is a person expressing themselves and only the second is someone swearing at someone.

I think though, someone who claims to be sworn at if they are not being sworn at could be someone who will attribute other negative characteristics to comments made. Like declaring that people are using mocking and vile language when posters are stating factual information and using accurate and precise language. Or fucking swearing. And someone who might make such mischaracterisations based on their personal standards that don’t reflect what is considered reasonable by society (as the mods have to judge by) might also then assign negative generalisations based on very few examples.

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/05/2025 14:49

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 13:50

@FlakyCritic has sworn at me and managed to have several comments deleted, so don't blame me, I'm just stating my point of view.

This is a discussion forum, not so much a place to lob comments and then run.

Shortshriftandlethal · 14/05/2025 14:46

PhoebesPony · 14/05/2025 13:46

Why, because you can't cope with anyone having a different point of view or questioning anything?

You are posing questions (or rather making accusations), which people then answer in some depth...and you totally ignore. Posting one liners and throwaway comments does not represent a meaningful analysis or discussion. Please stop wasting everyone's time.