Thank You from a Trans Lurker

Hmm difficult question. I don't know how trans people think, but it seems from the mention of AGP's that they are motivated by the sexual arousal they get from wearing women's or men's clothes. I'm assuming it's something deeper for trans people who fully live their lives as trans but you'd have to ask that of a trans person, what their motivations are

What's the difference between a cross dresser and 'really trans'?

To my mind an AGP is just a cross dresser, not really trans, does the same happen with some trans men?

Sorry forgot to add that link

I'm not convinced by his reasoning

Do you think that natal females ever experience autoandrophilia [sexual arousal at the thought or image of oneself as male]?
Clinical mentions of heterosexual women with strong masculine traits who say that they feel as if they were homosexual men and who feel strongly attracted to effeminate men go back over 100 years. I do not think they are the female equivalents of autogynephiles, and to underscore that point I have started referring to them as autohomoerotics. Some of these individuals do develop clinically significant gender dysphoria, and it is well documented that at least a few autohomoerotic gender dysphorics have undergone surgical sex reassignment and were satisfied with their decision to do so.
Until recent times, autohomoerotic female-to-male transsexuals were quite rare. The differences between autogynephilia in males and autohomoeroticism in females may seem subtle. Autogynephilic (male) gender dysphorics are attracted to the idea of having a woman’s body; autohomoerotic (female) gender dysphorics are attracted to the idea of participating in gay male sex. For autogynephiles, becoming a lesbian woman is a secondary goal—the logical consequence of being attracted to women and wanting to become a woman. For autohomoerotics, becoming a gay man appears to be the primary goal or very close to it.

Talking about AGP I'm interested in the trans mens version of this. This from Ray Blanchard which was linked by a poster for me to read. He talks about ftm being aroused by wearing men's clothes and imagining themselves but only in relation to them having gay sex with a man. What about the trans men who are attracted to women? He doesn't mention that at all although I'm sure it must apply. There's no reason to think trans men aren't also, I think the word is auto-androphiles . This doesn't seem to be mentioned.

Thank you. I’ll take a look 😊

Some of the trans community deny AGP is a thing.

Some embrace it enthusiastically.

Debbie Hayton:

https://debbiehayton.com/2022/05/16/my-autogynephilia-story/

Phil Illy:

https://www.queermajority.com/essays-all/i-blew-up-the-internet-by-wearing-a-dress-to-a-gender-conference

Here's Julia Serano on AGP:

https://juliaserano.medium.com/autogynephilia-and-anti-trans-activism-23c0c6ad7e9d

The “trans” community deny that AGP is a thing.

Oh this is interesting. Excuse my ignorance if this is a well known thing, but does the trans community believe that AGP men are a separate sub-group of trans people, or actually not really trans at all? And if so is anyone speaking out about it? Thanks.

Just as there are many different personalities within the human population!

It’s great to hear from some calm, reasonable trans women here. Thanks 💜

Here's a potted history of some of the reasons behind what you describe as the difference in attitude:

Autogynaephilia (AGP) is, according to the researchers who categorised it, a paraphilia and the predominant form of trans identity in the male population https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

In addition, sexologists have studied paraphilias and realised that they tend to cluster, so AGP can also co-exist in one male with other paraphilias (see interviews or writings by Dr James Cantor or Dr Az Hakeem). Also read the testimonies of the wives and children of AGP men https://www.transwidows.com/index.php/voices/transwidow-2/ or https://childrenoftransitioners.org/ or watch Vaishnavi Sundar's excellent documentary 'Behind the Looking Glass'

And sexologists and criminologists have learned that paraphilias tend to escalate as males seek more and more excitement/sexual stimulation - hence police learning to treat flashing and voyeurism in males more seriously than they used to because research has shown that these paraphilic crimes often escalate to sexual assault and murder (see Wayne Couzens' case being a perfect example).

Exactly. There's a lot of diversity within people who identify as trans. It's absurdly simplistic to lump all together on the basis of claiming a 'trans' identity really.

Which was one point made by the Supreme Court - attempting to group on the basis of a mix of sex and 'identity' makes an incoherent grouping.

There are a handful of trans women and trans men posting on here at the moment and talking about their dysphoria and it does actually sound like they have quite a lot in common.

Certainly more in common with each other than a trans woman with genuine dysphoria has in common with someone who just has a fetish.

The reason it might appear as if trans men are treated differently is because trans men don't pose any threat to women (they are female and trying to live their lives as best they can, rather than male and using women's spaces) and because they don't come on here and lecture us about why we should give them whatever they want even at the expense of our own rights, as many trans women have been known to do.

But there are currently two trans women posting on this board in a perfectly respectful way and I don't think they are being treated particularly differently to trans men.

'....when discussing trans women compared to trans men. They have a lot in common no? The same body dysphoria issues, mental health problems and many other things. I'm not on some mission to be on the side of trans women, I just don't get the huge difference in attitude.'

A teenage girl struggling with puberty and body dysphoria is not the same as a fifty year old crossdressing man who gets sexual excitement from his fetish.

What do they have in common?

I'm not sure you even said what your view is.......apart from the fact that you think 'transmen' are being treated differently to 'transwomen' on the board.

I think people have explained that is not the case across the board, and have also spelled out how they are making differentiations between one type of poster/person and another.

There is, of course, an obvious difference...transmen are female, and transwomen are male.

In addition people are all individuals, and just adopting a trans identity does not automatically make someone a lovely, nice, respectful or insightful person.

It is best to judge an individual on the nature and content of their post or their behaviour, or whatever. So, I guess you've probably seen comments that relate to men like Robin Moira White or maybe Inidia Willoughby, or to any number of AGP men who prioritise their own narcissistic needs for validation above the rights and dignity of the female sex?

The OP, on the otherhand is a sensitive, aware and considerate person who has respect for the dignity of other females.

No not at all trans women are just that - ' trans' women, they are not women and vice versa for trans men. I have never suggested I think that. I agree with a lot of points e.g sport and many others. To be called a trans activist is so far from the truth it's laughable. But I don't see why it has to descend to the depths that I've seen on this board when discussing trans women compared to trans men. They have a lot in common no? The same body dysphoria issues, mental health problems and many other things. I'm not on some mission to be on the side of trans women, I just don't get the huge difference in attitude. But as I've apparently been told eleventy times it's because they're men so I should just put up and shut up and go away. And I actually don't want to derail this thread, but when I put my point across it's like I'm not allowed to have a view and it's annoying. I really am going to shut up and go away now!

It’s been great to have such constructive engagement (minus the occasional derail). Thank you to @Seethlaw for starting the thread and to @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW (I hope I have tagged correctly) for being willing to talk openly and without cliches.

Its not so much a block button, but the fact that some people just cant let go.

There is no obligation to reply to posts, particularly if you feel they are a derail.

Or politely suggest that as a thread has been about one person's experience, instead of trying to hijack it to talk about what they want, that they start their own thread - eg why are TM treated better that TW on FWR.

And assuming a genuine grievance worth a thread of its own, rather that appearing non-sequentially in a thread about something else.

Yes there are derailers, but there is also the fact that some of us cant help but rise to the bait.

Sad, because as others have said this thread has been interesting, and an example of learning by listening to each other.

Even if we dont end up all thinking the same, or even agreeing!

What specifically are you talking about?