Thank You from a Trans Lurker

A lot of the posts are extremely mocking of trans women, maybe you haven't read too many. That's how many come across to me anyway. They are always ' a man in a dress' But yes I guess on this forum of women that is only to be expected. It's a sad state of affairs that they have all been lumped together because of the actions of some of them. As someone who has transitioned yourself do you not have any empathy for how the genuine trans women are being treated at the moment? The ones who just want to get on with their lives without encroaching on anyone else? Because I'm sure there are lots of them who are quietly doing just that. I'm sure a balance will come in time. The reasonable trans people need to get together to make the changes they now need e.g third spaces etc. Let's hope that happens.

I can appreciate the position of the OP and hope she will find others to be non conforming with ,without further damage to the sex class that is women. The more nuanced empathetic views she has are typical in many women. Personally although she can present herself as she likes, she will never be a man and it doesn’t feel right to call her one. However I can empathise with some of the reasons that transition might have been a good option at the time. However the minute she tries to lecture children and young people about her choices, my empathy will evaporate, as we can see the damage that has been done already. However I ca welcome her contribution here of course.

What an interesting thread. Thanks for posting OP. Like others have said, we’re not anti trans. We just want to retain single sex spaces for all the reasons they were created in the first place and that means keeping all males out no matter how they identify. Unfortunately, the majority of transwomen who come on here, do so to lecture us and have the complete opposite attitude to you.

I believe the social pressure to use preferred pronouns is very much on the wane.

The incoherency of pronoun usage etiquette has reached the point of being too cumbersome for people to remain engaged I think. Maybe first was the male sports people such as Thomas and Hubbard. Then came Bryson and all of a sudden we were told that rapists don't deserve pronouns and this played out in different court cases where finally women did not have to refer to their rapists as being women and she/her.

Then came Wadhwa, I guess. We were suddenly allowed to not have to use pronouns there either. Although, not really officially like Bryson.

Somewhere in there was Eddie Izzard who enlightened the world as to how he changes pronouns depending on the role he is taking. That he may be in boy-mode or girl-mode. I think that really caught people's attention after Bryson and Wadhwa.

Then Dr Cass was clear that social transition was not a neutral act.

Then came Upton. A real test case. And so many people around the UK listened to interviews, some of us even got to watch the trial, and pronouns were not used and the stark clarity of what had happened became undeniable. A female nurse was suspended because she was uncomfortable getting undressed in front of a male colleague. And women used the correct sex pronouns for that male person. News outlets also.

I doubt that the preferred pronouns will be used as much now. Each month or two at the moment there seems to be something that points out just how ideologically driven it all was. And more and more people are realising that they don't agree with philosophical belief that says that male people can be female or vice versa.

It is really remarkable to see people demonise women for not using the demanded pronouns, in discussions about sex based rights though. And just because you, personally Pony, want to use someone's 'preferred' language, doesn't mean that those who don't wish to, don't have very valid reasons not to and should be shamed for not using that language.

I've been here for a couple of years, and read many thousands of posts. Undoubtedly there have been some that are extremely critical of trans people, mostly aimed at men claiming to be women. Most, however, are in my opinion reasonable, because they are based on evidence. I get that women with bad experiences of men in general can be dismissive of men - as a man, I'm inclined to say that as a class we deserve it, though I appreciate it when women acknowledge that we're "not all like that" or that some of us "try not to be like that".

Similarly, perhaps the appalling behaviour of some men who claim a trans identity tarnishes all trans people, who don't in many cases individually deserve to be tarred with the same brush (I'll stop mixing metaphors there). Given the ignoring and attempted silencing of women, I'm personally prepared to overlook some intemperate language born out of frustration. I can't agree with "any thread on here ... post after post"; what I have seen is a small proportion among many robustly but respectfully argued opinions. Quite different from the worst of TwiX and Reddit.

When I was in my early twenties and beginning to see some truth in feminist perspectives, I remember being quite put out by a robust criticism of men's behaviour. A wise older woman noticed my discomfort, asked me about it, and sympathised without denying the validity of the criticism; I learned not to take such criticism personally. This is something that young people nowadays, and perhaps particularly trans people, might do well to consider. Hypersensitivity to disagreement results in self victimisation.

Bless you OP x

😀

I have real life experience (as compared with social media experience) of interacting with TW, TM and TRA allies (not necessarily really TRAs themselves). It's a very small sample of each, but for what it's worth, my experience is:

• TRA ally number 1 (female) - utterly self righteous from the beginning and made assumptions about my motivation; called me a bigot and won't discuss further
• TRA ally number 2 (female) - very similar understanding of sex and gender to me, but her sympathies lie primarily with trans people and she doesn't understand why women are "making a fuss"; comes out with all the TRA arguments
• TRA ally number 3 (female) - I questioned an assumption of hers, and my DW had a good conversation with her afterwards; we appear to be "agreeing to disagree"
• TW - started out reasonable but is now behaving coercively; if I don't do as I'm told, I can expect estrangement, which I deserve
• TM - prepared to debate; emotionally invested with queer theory; has called me a bigot but apologised

I've met a few other trans people, but haven't got to know them well enough for the clash of worldviews to show. I've crossed swords with people about religious and political views many times, and only once been ostracised as a result (about 50 years ago by a fundamentalist).

Yes I get everyone's points but if you read any thread on here the language towards trans women is quite abysmal, post after post. And I understand that there are obviously some trans women who deserve that treatment, but not all of them do. I'm not just talking about the few trans women who have started threads, though they are ripped to shreds you can't really deny. Just the general language around them is extremely negative. I agree that some of them haven't done themselves any favours whatsoever. The trans men I know do want to be called he/him, perhaps that's unusual OP? I mean if you go to all the trouble of transitioning surely you would want to be acknowledged as male even though you accept you were born female?
I'm not trying to argue against anyone's points regarding women's rights and spaces, sport and all the rest of it, I agree with it.
Anyway just my thoughts on that matter, I don't pretend to have the knowledge and wisdom of a lot of the posters on here. Perhaps in time when things settle calmer conversations can be had.

Thank you, even though reading this made me cry. To be understood and for the way people like me think not to be simply and wrongly dismissed as bigotry and transphobia means a great deal. I don't hate anyone. I don't want anyone to live their life in fear. I just want people to listen to the way I think and pause for a minute to consider whether any of it might actually be reasonable.
It is a tragedy that someone like you is not the voice of the trans movement that most people are hearing, or I think, things would be very different.
I would never knowingly misgender you and neither I suspect would most people on here. You have hit the nail on the head when you speak of mutual respect. Most of us terfs are perfectly respectful when we feel respected ourselves.

There are reasons why transmen's posts and in particular this, and threads like it, elicit a different tone. Firstly, it's an indication of what posters often try to explain: we aren't 'transphobic' or 'bigots'. We have simply been saying that women's sex-based rights, spaces, prizes, sports must remain single-sex because otherwise those sex-based rights disappear. If a right given to females in order to allow them full access to a patriarchal society is then also given to males, those rights become meaningless. So in a patriarchy, it is males, however they present, that endanger females' rights.
Secondly, in reality, the issue most women have is not with trans per se (though many of us I know worry about our ND children in the face of TRAs lies). Our issue is with males because at population level males are bigger, stronger, more violent, more criminal. So the reality is that transmen, being of the female sex, are not, at population level, a threat.
Thirdly, from the posts I've seen, transmen (there was an AMA thread recently too) seem to post in a really different way from the TRAs and from some/most of the transwomen on here who often come across in a very entitled (male) way.

It's not hypocritical at all.

As feminists of course we will always support trans men, aka trans-identifying women as physically vulnerable members of society who have received the same social conditioning as us, and who are not trying to strip us of our identity as women.

Baffled you can't seem to grasp that

Posts from women who identify as men are thought-provoking, but 'possibly ever on here'? If that's your personal opinion, GRCP, fair enough, but I want to balance it with a nod to the many hundreds of other posters on here.

While I agree that it's been great to have exchanges with trans people which are quiet and thoughtful and respectful, I think the FWR [called Feminism: Sex and gender now, so that should be F:S&G - less catchy than FWR!] board is full of thought-provoking, knowledgeable, funny, informative, well-researched posts.

PhoebesPony If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women.
Transmen are women, right? You seem to be missing that important point!

Hey, not wanting to derail this thread but I think you make a point and I wanted to reply. I made a similiar post on here a few weeks ago and I wasn't attacked or torn apart, my interactions were all pretty positive actually.

I have seen and read alot of comments on here about TW that make me go 'eek' though, there is a much different attitude towards TW and TM but whilst I wouldn't accept anybody personally denigrating me I also get the fact that there are more males calling themselves TW who are opportunistic fetishists doing gross things than there are TM who are doing similiar and it's normally been 'TW' with the vile threats and whatnot. So I get why we've reached this point, but it's certainly upsetting being lumped in with the likes of Jessica Yaniv after all of what's gone on!

I appreciate what you have had to say though.

Hey OP, it's really good to hear your voice and thoughts! I'm also a trans person (TW) who isn't really welcome in the main community for having differing opinions and being honest about how the TRAs have caused the problems that they have so I'm always glad to see there's more of us out there!

OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here. Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter. I find it a bit hypocritical. I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her. Some of the comments about trans women are quite horrible to be honest. I do understand the needs for women's rights and spaces obviously but I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange. You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex yet you are treated with respect on here and any trans women is thrown to the fire. No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman. I guess it's because you now identify as a man and men are not their concern. Fair enough, I get that. But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice. It's a shame for the many trans folk who just want to go about their lives that some have ruined it for them. Anyway I wish you all the best in life, more accepting conversations like this is the way forward hopefully.
Just to add I am not trans myself, just would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women.

Thank you for this post @Seethlaw it has been most interesting and informative.
Thank you too for bothering to listen to so called "terfs" and for understanding that for people like me it is not at all about denying trans people's human rights but purely about trying to preserve the rights generations of our women ancestors fought, died and went to prison for.
I'm glad you escaped from your difficult childhood and seem to have found some sort of happiness and contentment.

@Seethlaw thankyou for your posts and another welcome from me

I've been avoiding actively participating in fandom for a decade because it got too political all the time, and I blame the behaviour on Tumblr for ruining the fun of at least 3 fandoms I was part of [/me shakes fist in anger at Tumblr].

These days I stick to reading fanfic (although even that has also gone very weird in some ways so a careful search of tags is highly necessary). I know how wonderful it is to get caught up in fandom, and to find people who love something as much as you do, so I do hope that is still possible for people to experience in the more innocent and less political way that it was for me in the 90s/00s.

Welcome, OP! Always good to hear from lurkers.

Most thought provoking thread I’ve read in … possibly ever on here! Cheers OP