Thank You from a Trans Lurker

You know Mishy, weaponising female people who have taken steps to develop male body cues against female people who might find that distressing is really not the gotcha you obviously think.

It actually highlights just how much you actually hate female people who disagree with you.

I believe Mishy is a TRA and a wind-up merchant.

Regardless of topic, it is wonderful for someone to so eloquently state their change of view. If only this happened more.

Thank you so much for your posts. It’s brave of you to speak out. it’s so interesting to hear your experience of being trans. I’ve been a long time supporter of LGBT and at the beginning of this toxic debate I veered more towards the views of the trans women. However being a feminist I noticed quite soon that those trans voices demanding and expecting to be heard were all male at birth, and I wondered where the trans men were, and what their thoughts were. After reading more around the subject and seeking out differing views I now find myself in TERF category but I’d still consider myself a strong LGBT ally. I believe strongly that trans people should be able to live as they choose but I also do not agree that we should all collude with the notion that trans people are biologically their preferred gender.

Anyway I just wanted to say how happy I am to hear more nuanced and reasoned voices in this subject. Thank you!

The above poster, I believe, has claimed to be a trans woman in the past. Just for context. I therefore assume they are referring to their own attitude to seeing you in the men's.

Edit - I'm not calling mishy a man, just trying to make sense of their post about the right toilets.

Make sure that you always use the toilets per your biological sex. Men don't want to see you in their toilets and personal spaces either. You will be welcomed by us in the ladies toilets. You may just need to explain that you are a biological female though if confronted, but that is not a big deal once you have explained the situation.

@Seethlaw - that is interesting as it sounds very similar to what my friends who have had weight loss surgery (or very significant weight loss by other means).

That suddenly they were acknowledged, take more seriously when they spoke, were seen as more valid than when they were very fat, occupied more “social” space even though they were taking up less physical space.

I wonder if it’s that they and you have moved up the social hierarchy? Confidence helps of course, but in their cases they were all very confident women to start with.
🤷🏻‍♀️

@Seethlaw
There is something I'd really like to ask you as it is something I've been wondering about for a while but have been loathe to ask anyone else for fear of causing offence, or being shouted down .

I am a 61 year old female. I have never really been very gender conforming and as kid was always referred to as a "tomboy". I have very short hair, don't wear make up and don't generally wear very female clothing. I enjoy quite a lot of what are considered "male" interests. My first relationship was a lesbian one but since then I have been in long term relationships with men and had 2 children. In the past I have been misgendered as a man, which caused me either amusement or a degree of distress, depending on how I was feeling on the day, as I have never considered that I look like a man.
Anyway, despite not ever feeling very girly, I have never felt that the umbrella term of "woman" wasn't wide enough to have a place for me. I wondered why you felt that you could no longer identify as a woman? Was it gender dysphoria or something else that made you take the dufficult decision to transition. If you'd rather not answer this I totally understand but you said you didn't mind questions.

It's not really that strange, is it?

We are the same sex as trans men, they are welcome in our spaces regardless of how they identify, they don't come in here trying to mansplain womanhood to us.

This is a feminism board and feminism includes trans men.

Yes I really do now and I thank you. A lot of food for thought. I'll be following the threads.

Oh also OP if you're into fandom, I wonder if you'd find this thread and article interesting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5006097-5006097-where-did-all-the-weird-nerd-women-go-by-eliza-mondegreen

I have a question for OP but it's more general - I wonder how often in your life is being (or being seen as ) a man/woman actually pertinent, and has this changed since transitioning?

For example, walking down the street, getting on the bus, doing supermarket shopping... I wouldn't expect my experience to be affected by my gender particularly, unless there were aggressive lads or overbearing men etc. But since you've experienced both sides, do you find you're treated differently as a man in more situations than you expected?

Obviously anything that's specifically "for" men or women like toilets will be different, but I was wondering if we're "treated as men/women" rather than "treated as humans" in more circumstances? You would be better placed to notice if this had changed whereas I'm more likely to assume "that's how it is for everyone".

Not sure that makes any sense, I'm also trying to eat a sausage roll while typing!

I have been told on MNHQ I was personally responsible for men beating up men on the opposite side of the world by one man who I believe is often featured on panels as he is an activist. Panels that should be for women, but hey ho.... he says he is.

Hey, some of us have been carefully working on our reputations as nasty vile vipers for a long time, Moist. I've even been called a hyena. <preens>

Do you feel you understand more why the transwomen who come here to tell us how wrong we are get short shrift?

Then we get polite, articulate and engaged posters like @Seethlaw and we welcome their perspectives and experiences. Of course we do.

One of the most frustrating lies about FWR is that we’re a hateful bunch of transphobes. We’re not. Many of us have trans people in our families.

What we are is fearless in the defence of women’s rights and boundaries.

Thanks for posting OP, and as ever I'm really sad that the "community" that is so often dangled in front of people ends up being unwelcoming and single-minded - but at least you transitioned long enough ago that it sounds like you're not missing much!

Not to make this thread be another "what FWR is like" thread, but generally we've had trans men post on here and they've been thoughtful and understanding. It must be somewhat hard to not feel combative - MN is a mixed bag and someone will always post something snippy ....

vs the TW who have largely fired out insulting word salad or crowbar in odd references to make some sort of argument, then disappeared when questioned on it. There was one TW (obviously no-one can truly say anyone is who they say they are) who had the courtesy to engage with their views, and they did seem to stem from "traditional" attitudes of what men and women are supposedly like.

Everyone contributes something. I hope you stick around.

From the comments welcoming you OP, I think it proves to me that the majority do not hate trans people at all. They just want their spaces too.

People just hate being being told what to do and if you don't you're an (insert word) ist.

I find the aggressive nature of it very militant and it really puts me off. I was absolutely ripped apart online and told I wasn't safe to be around just because I like Harry Potter. I categorically stated I wasn't a fan of JKR but the way they spoke to me actually made me turn slightly the other way. I've never been spoken to so nastily. I was aghast someone said I wasn't safe to be around because of a book. 🥺😰

When I was growing up, I really empathised with trans people and I thought it must be hard being in the wrong body, especially if your mind doesn't align with that.

I thouht people always got surgery in this case but nowadays a lot don't. I find it harder to accept if someone is female if they still have their dongalong. This might be wrong of me but it's my opinion. I'm much more likely to take someone seriously if they've had the op done. Not just put on a wig and a bit of a lipstick and say they are a woman.

I do think of myself as an ally but I won't rip up women's rights to do so. I also won't be told I can't enjoy a fantasy series because someone doesn't like it.

I also find the black and white ways lack critical thinking skills too. I completely agree with everything you've said.

You seem a very sensible and intelligent human being. Who realises that to make everyone happy, a middle ground must be met. I truly hope your life since transitioning and moving away from the cult like church, is a very happy and peaceful one. I hope you always get to live the way you want.

I just want that for bio women too. And also trans women. I have no issue with that. A third space would be welcomed and I would fight for their right on that absolutely!

And the male people at the rape support groups that are advertised as 'women only'. There is a court case later this year about Brighton Rape Crisis who refused to create a female only group when a rape victim felt that the male person who declared they were a woman was acting inappropriately and showing too much interest in the rape stories.

The centre excluded her from any other group sessions. Her, not him.

I don't believe that any female person would be misusing a rape support group.

Hope OP comes back to chat. I'll duck out because I feel I'm derailing. I do appreciate all your responses to me and they've given me much food for thought.

Ugh it's awful, I had no idea about some of these things. I'm sorry you're experiencing this.