Thank You from a Trans Lurker

I suppose you could argue I do when I use the men's loo?

I wasn't really thinking is a physical way, but the endless online rants, sob stories, that we hear or see from TW.

Many of which may not even be true and are just intended to get sympathy and likes, but accumlate to infer that women are being mean and unreasonable.

But obviously hope that @Seethlaw you have never experienced something frightening or demeaning in a male toilet.

Just agreeing with this. Best wishes OP.

So many interteresting posts on here, only just catching up since late last night. But would like to quote this from OP

"OP unfortunately if you were a trans woman you would have been torn to shreds on here."
I highly doubt that. To be more precise: I highly doubt that a transwoman would be torn to shreds JUST for being a transwoman. People would be wary, yes, and she would be made highly aware that she is a man in a place mostly populated by women, but I don't see why she would automatically be rejected.
"Every post would state you're a man and refuse to entertain your thoughts on the matter."
Did you see me barging in claiming to be a man? No, I didn't. That's the difference with all the transwomen I've seen coming on here so far: I accept my biological reality. I am a biological woman and I'm not afraid to own it. A transwoman is a biological man and they need to own it as well.
" I wonder if they'd be happy to call you he/him as you probably prefer being a trans man as they certainly wouldn't call a trans woman she/her."
I expect to be called she/her. I accept that on this forum, people call you by your sex, not your gender.
" I find the disconnect between how trans women and trans men are treated quite strange."
I don't. In my experience, transmen are far more likely to be respectful of other people's opinions and of the law, while transwomen are far more likely to be entirely self-centered and demand that other people twist themselves around them, even in their own spaces. That this creates a huge different in how transmen and transwomen are received is only natural.
"You have both wanted to change to the opposite sex"
That is utterly impossible. I'm a biological woman and I'll always be a biological woman. I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man (and because it fits my own apprehension of my body better, but that's entirely personal.)
"No one has really challenged you at all in the way they would a trans woman."
What would they challenge me on?
"But a bit of understanding both ways would be nice."
People here have shown nothing but respect for my feelings of gender dysphoria, so yes it would be nice if in return transwomen showed respect for the fact that they'll never be biological women.
" would be nice if the discussion was a bit more balanced about trans men and trans women. If people are GC then surely they feel the same towards trans men as they do about trans women."
Why would they, when there are at least two massive differences between the two categories? One is a biological fact: transwomen are men demanding access to women's spaces, while transmen present no threat to women. The other is one of attitude: I'm not the only transman around here, and all of us accept to play by the rules of the place (for example: to be sexed, not gendered), while transwomen typically don't.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Just because both are fruits, doesn't mean they are the same. People around here show me respect because I showed them respect first. Let transwomen do the same and they'll see they can be respected too. In fact, I bet a lot of people here would love to hear from a transwoman who would explain her situation in a reasonable manner, and who would show that she understands why so many women are wary of her and don't want transwomen in their spaces.

This is just not only wonderful to read but a clear illustration of why (is it because they are biological male) so many TW dont get respect.

Their need to lecture and demand and to insist that because they want the affirmation of being in women's spaces women must allow them to be in them. Do TW really believe they change sex, or is it that just part of their way to justify saying that women must treat them as though they have. ie reverting to aggression to get their way.

I cant imagine OP and other TM making this demand on men. Or maybe they do?!

Can you imagine how different it would be for all of us if the growth in trans identity, let alone gender reassignment had and was happening in this manner of exchange.

So accusations that FWR is hostile to TW is informed by the relentless attack on women's rights and women's experience of being a member of the female sex class in a world where the male sex class has discriminated against, excluded, been violent towards women all through history.

Whether its nature or nurture this thread just illustrates that men's believe that they are in the right remains whatever identity they adopt.

Thank you for that clarification. Your initial statement really jarred with me as well, and I’m glad you are happy to fine tune it.

I kind of hate the whole “allyship” claims and all that stuff. It be all sounds so performative and “Look at me being wonderful.”

As the mother of, and cousin of, and close friend of a number of lesbian, gay and bisexual people - and having known them all my life - I found the whole T bolt-on rather weird and mystifying. Identity and sexuality are not the same AT ALL. I’ve gone to Pride events to support me kid, signed petitions and written to my MPs over Section 28 and equal marriage.

But suddenly signing over women’s spaces to late transitioning transwomen who had all the advantages of male privilege, male entitlement and a male puberty seemed absolutely nothing like those issues abd campaigns.

Well I apologise for knowing tall people and being quite tall myself! This is silly.

@Seethlaw
Thank you very much for your detailed and insightful answer to my question upthread. Your response mirrors my own observations and it's good to see I wasn't 'seeing what I wanted to see'.

The average height of a woman in the UK is 162.4cm/5ft 4.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/health-survey-for-england/2021/part-4-trends

Its why im less likely to be confrontational when women come on here than when men do.

Its a feminist space and its obvious lots of trans identifying women are working their way throughout some sort of trauma. And if speaking here helps in some way...

I cant support adults pretending to be the opposite sex, though. I cant see how we can hide womens sex to help them through trauma, and not encourage children to think it's possible to change sex, or that gender is a solution for anything.

I love reading good fanfic but fuck me if some of it isn’t the writer trying to negotiate their way through previous abuse through writing. It’s really obvious and jarring when it is. I Check out their tumblrs (because there’s a pattern to it) and so many of these traumatised women and girls are trying to shed their femininity they believe caused the abuse but express some weird hyper sexuality (the kind that comes as a coping strategy) in a domineering icky way to and I just want to make them get therapy.

I just wanted to say thank you @Seethlaw for sharing your story.

This has been an interesting, informative thread.

Wishing you well and all happiness for the future. 💐

Hi that’s a fair comment. I guess what I meant was that coming from a LGBT ally perspective, initially I felt that GC arguments were mean-minded and often bitchy (I’m referencing JKR, Sharon Davies & Glinner on Twitter). I couldn’t align with that and so it took me a while to find my true position. I understand now why they, and others, made unkind comments after they themselves had been subject to vitriolic, hateful abuse but this was not clear to me initially.

I appreciate you picking me up on it. I guess I still have a lot of stuff to interrogate as I become more firmly in camp GC. I apologise as I did not mean to imply that other people aren’t also fair-minded & kind.

I don’t actually post on social media often so perhaps I need to take more care to avoid misunderstanding. I’m also mostly a lurker but I was so thrilled to see a) a trans man’s perspective of the SC ruling and also b) that I’m not alone in having nuanced but firmly GC views in the trans discussion. I’ve spent too much time on Twitter which has perhaps skewed my view of the debate on both sides!

Hi that’s a fair comment. I guess what I meant was that coming from a LGBT ally perspective, initially I felt that GC arguments were mean-minded and often bitchy (I’m referencing JKR, Sharon Davies & Glinner on Twitter). I couldn’t align with that and so it took me a while to find my true position. I understand now why they, and others, made unkind comments after they themselves had been subject to vitriolic, hateful abuse but this was not clear to me initially.

I appreciate you picking me up on it. I guess I still have a lot of stuff to interrogate as I become more firmly in camp GC. I apologise as I did not mean to imply that other people aren’t also fair-minded & kind.

I don’t actually post on social media often so perhaps I need to take more care to avoid misunderstanding. I’m also mostly a lurker but I was so thrilled to see a) a trans man’s perspective of the SC ruling and also b) that I’m not alone in having nuanced but firmly GC views in the trans discussion. I’ve spent too much time on Twitter which has perhaps skewed my view of the debate on both sides!

I don’t have time to RTFT right now, OP (but I will later!). I just wanted to say thank you for posting. It’s so appreciated to know there are people like you who are willing to stick their heads above the parapet (and I understand why more don’t, but I do wonder how widespread your views might be within the trans community). I recall a TW on TikTok making the same points as you very early on and being absolutely vilified, torn to shreds. She disappeared from SM.

I feel such rage and sadness at the damage that’s been done to all of us, right across society, by these delusional bullies. Their jackboot aggression and inability to engage in any kind of constructive debate has such created a toxic divide.

I don’t know any woman who had a problem with transwomen prior to this attack on women’s rights and protections, sports and safe spaces. There was much more of a live-and-let-live attitude, a lot of sympathy even. Now many of us have had to take a far more radical, exclusionary stance because we’ve had no bloody choice. I feel like we were politically forced into bed with far right lunatics and Christian fundamentalists, whilst the trans community basically had a bunch of misogynistic MRAs purporting to speak for everyone. Total headfuck.

It’s had a terrible impact on the lives of so many - including transwomen - and has been a net negative for everyone on both sides. Your post gives me hope, though, that there will eventually be a path back to mutual respect and understanding, and a time when this madness will be behind us.

Thanks again for de-lurking!

Is there anything in particular you wanted to discuss in the article? I definitely recognise the atmosphere and specifics the writer mentions...

No, not really, i just remembered it being interesting - then after I posted it here, realised it was more focused than I remembered on "trendy" trans and Online being "to blame", so I hope you don't think I was getting at that in your case!

My son got diagnosed as autistic as a kid, at which point I went, "Er, I just thought he was just like me??

I really feel this. It's eye-opening seeing your own behaviours being done at you/shared by your kids, and how the behaviours are perceived!

@Nickers1234 , sorry to nitpick your positive post, but this bit rankles a bit:

It’s taken me a couple of years to work out my thoughts on this, as I am fairly fair-minded and inclusive.

It implies that the rest of us are not fair minded or inclusive, which isn't fair.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I think I mistakenly imagined that there was maybe some sort of tipping point, where a largely gender non conforming woman like myself, might somehow believe they no longer "belonged" as a woman, or failed to fit accepted gender norms to a degree they couldn't live with.
Your description of feeling like a fraud if you continued to present as a woman is really interesting and something I had just not considered, so thank you for the education.
It has been helpful to hear a different perspective from the TRA one that is so often at the fore of any public trans debate.
I realise that you have not set yourself up as a spokesperson for trans people, but your approach of engagement and tolerance for other people's points of view is a breath of fresh air.

Do you mean me? Thank you. It’s taken me a couple of years to work out my thoughts on this, as I am fairly fair-minded and inclusive. Although an LGBT ally, I couldn’t make my feminist views sit comfortably with trans women in sports, winning woman of the year etc. I’m not sure what the answer is, as trans people absolutely deserve to be honoured for achievements in society or sport, but this should not be under the “women” category, and I don’t feel women’s voices & experiences should be sidelined.

Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace.

Of course there is nothing wrong with this.

It's all the other stuff - the #nodebate, the getting people sacked, the absolute banning - by social pressure and institutional capture - of any sensible and rational discussion.

Good luck to you - I hope that you don't suffer from the effects of medicalisation. But I have to say, it makes me want to weep that young women live in a society which makes them so anxious about their female body they go to lengths to avoid their femaleness (not talking about learned femininity)

It's lovely to hear from you OP. And I hope you have been here long enough to realise ghat the vast majority of terms and GC people on here are very live and let live. I have nothing against trans people wanting safe spaces to call their own. I do have a problem with women's spaces being annexed.

I think facts are very healthy in this fight.
Women are women.
Men are men.
Transwomen are transwomen, though many possess male pattern behaviour of violence and entitlement.
Transmen are transmen, though many possess female patterns of behaviour of accommodating others and making or keeping the peace, and campaigning in non-viplent ways.
Women must keep protected spaces such as refuges, changing rooms, loos, hospital wards, prisons, spas, sports teams, categories and events.
Transwomen have different needs from women and from men. Transmen have different needs from men and from women. Focus on those needs, not on removing the rights of others, and all will be well.