Thank You from a Trans Lurker

1. England is in Europe
2. Many places outside of the UK learn English 🤪

No problem @FlakyCritic ! I came on with a few points of view, I hope I wasn't blaming GC women as such, just trying to work out the differences in how trans and trans women are treated. I agree with just about all of everyone's points and have learnt a lot that I genuinely didn't know about! I then went and read the breast feeding thread and was utterly disgusted at the way some men are trying to infiltrate traditional women's spaces that have no relevance to them. I'm just learning and asking questions 👍

I hope you are both paying attention @ButterflyHatched and @FairAdvocate . Oh and also @Christinapple .

This is how it's done!

Sorry @PhoebesPony I have just read through the full thread and didn't realise others made the same points to you as I did and I came on later. I didn't mean to make it feel like a pile on to you.

I just look on the inside and feel male

Have only just registered this.

So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.

What is "male" to you?

I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!

But there have been other threads where women have discussed how things changed for them, partly (not always) because of physical changes to their bodies - combined with how others, particularly men reacted to that.

But it doesn't mean this is the story of every women's girlhood.

(I think the thread was about how many of us when young wanted to be male.)

And I'm truely sorry that as a child your male faminly members abused you.

Just to pick up a point :

"I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man"

Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?
I ask because no one picked up on your comment but usually have a lot to say about men requesting to be treated as women socially.
Or is it ok for trans men , i e. socially acceptable but not for trans women?

I get and agree with many things on here and my eyes have been opened to a lot through this thread but a few things don't really sit right still.

The transwomen that have started these threads, have all, sadly, without exception, been aggressive and thrown their weight around. Without exception.

That's not our fault. We are only reacting to their aggression, bullying and abuse. That you blame GCs for transwomen's behaviour is disgusting and so wrong. Naturally if you come on here and are congenial and understanding and sincere and friendly as the OP is, you will get a different reaction than if you are a dismissive, aggressive bully. That's not rocket science. It says a lot about the Male Pattern Behaviour of the transwomen. Maybe you could consider that, and finally realise the point we've been making this whole time, instead of blaming GCs for the behaviour of males.

You haven't noticed the disconnect? Read OP's posts. Transwomen come on here all abusive, very aggressive and very my-way-or-the-highway. I am surprised you are once again, blaming GCs, when you can't see the difference between the congenial way transmen communicate, vs the aggressive way transwomen do. Transwomen are the problem here, not the GCs. Transwomen come on here throwing their weight around, and literally making demands about what we can discuss in a debate and the terms to be used. They come stomping in here and bullying and aggressively making demands. Transmen don't. Transmen are respectful.

Maybe you could consider the fact that you get the reception you give, hence the disconnect. The very fact that transwomen are so very aggressive, rude and demanding and transmen are not, should give you a wake up call.

I just look on the inside and feel male. It's nothing to do with other people; it's only about me.

If it's genuinely nothing to do with any character or psychological traits whatsoever then no, I don't understand! It's something you (understandably) assign great meaning to, yet doesn't seem to have much actual communicable meaning

I sometimes wonder if there is something different going on in some brains - you know how some people see sounds as colours, even KNOWING those colours aren't there, and they're not hallucinating, they just 'experience' the colours - I wonder if there's something 'extra' afforded to the notion of physical sex in some people? But that seems a rather far-reaching idea when cultural ideas of masculinity/femininity are so so deeply engrained they must be having an effect somewhere, on some people at least.

Plus, the sound-colour people can absolutely identify what is being 'added' to the sound - which colours go with which sounds. I don't think they would say 'well I associate colours with this music, but I couldn't say which colours they are, they're just 'C major arpeggio' colours'. So my analogy doesn't really work.

Ultimately, as much as I want it to make sense to me, it's none of my business what your 'feeling male' is as long as it makes sense to you. And I'm glad that it does seem to be the answer.

Thank you for enduring my musings!

Your ability to express yourself so thoughtfully in a second language is very impressive. It's been very interesting reading your posts, and you seem content in yourself, which is good to read.

No, not at all, just something I've thought before!

It’s fascinating to read your experiences and perspective. Another one who wants to say thank you for delurking!!

I agree that your English is brilliant! Which country are you from originally if you’re happy to answer this? You must have been in Canada for many years to have gained such a grasp of written English language, very impressive.

If that is something I inferred, I dont think giving birth is feminine. I talked about it being almost the prime example of being of the female sex.

Giving birth is exclusively female but I challenge anyone to say it's 'feminine' in the usual sense of the word! If it wasn't for it making a person physically very vulnerable, I'd say busting a human out of you (and the life support system for said human, which you also grew) and enduring enormous pain to do so while swearing like a trooper would be seen as wholly 'masculine' (and heroic) by any visiting alien.

... a woman "psychologically" - obviously that suggests there is something a woman "is like", psychologically.

Obviously not presuming to answer for OP but there have been other threads about this on FWR.

And not saying this is true of everyone but for many the problem was much more the gender stereo types that society tries to force of females from the moment they are born.

And not just those of us who were tom boys in our youth, but the feeling contrained, pushed and pulled into a mould that you just weren't.

And up until puberty, this can just be a bit light hearted, but the crunch is finding that yes indeed your body is female and that because it is female it means changes in your body. And more so than before how men young and old start looking at you, or worst physically imposing on you.

It this point in history it is almost like there are 2 extreme reactions to this. Young women who go down the route of over emphasising their femaleness, breast implants etc., and those who reject it all and some go on to say this is because they are trans. While most of us muddle through.

Just taking the example of female breasts. At least 2 high profile women who are trans and had breast removal surgery, talk about this being their moment of liberation. ie they have amputated the part of their body that men fixate on and force them (us) to be intimidated by the womanliness of our bodies. One then referenced having been molested. The other (and of course in the Guardian) that now she could go bare chested on the beach. Which she could have done without having surgery, by going to those Scandinavian countries where women being barebreasted on a beach.

The opposite of this is of course women, who openly boast about it, who have endless breast enhancement, advertising to men that the breasts they then exhibit aren't real, but realise they can make money by putting them on display.

Had meant to just talk about how gender stereotypes so limit women's prospects, even today - and of course what happens, however much wanted, becoming pregnant, giving birth and then caring for a child.

Just think of the historical stories we learn about of women who disguised themselves as men so as to be able to get an education, a position in society they couldn't if they were known to be women. Even this week there was the story of the woman who pretended to be a teenage boy so as to be accepted into the Magic Circle which didn't allow women.

So not to go on any longer, but all of us who didnt feel we were female growing up, was it our bodies or was the very curtailing impact of gender stereotypes?

(edited for many typos)

It's just that it doesn't feel right for me to present as a woman. It's a lie. It's what I am biologically, but not who I am psychologically.

Now, I know this may be impossible to answer. But... a woman "psychologically" - obviously that suggests there is something a woman "is like", psychologically. I spend a fair amount of time getting frustrated by that notion would you say this is, very broadly, referring to "feminine" traits? Or is it something different? And if you had an idea at 6 about what a woman is psychologically, how do you think that got embedded (I mean, given what you've said about the church, I'll take a guess that that might be in there somewhere) and do you think that either has changed, or could have changed, since then?

I'm not trying to catch you out, it's something I'm always interested in (and often even the most articulate people can't say much more than "i just felt it" ) - so perhaps not something I'll ever understand.

I've always kind of assumed it boils down to some interpretation of masculine/feminine but also really want to know if this is wrong.

My experience is just one person, but it explains why some women have very little patience for the trans women who are now, apparently, feeling threatened. I've seen what happens when the mask slips.
The men in frocks phrase used to shock me, until I realised that the loudest angriest tra voices were from self id'd men who are not in the least scared or vulnerable.
And some of the angriest, bitterest voices on here will belong to women who have been on the receiving end of their abuse or violence in real life. And I'm pretty sure that men in frocks sums up who they perceived was threatening them. Although tbh sometimes they don't even bother with the frocks.

Although I certainly do not identify as a man, I have, in my life, experienced similar feelings to yourself.....As a 10 year old girl with short hair ( always my natural default when I most want to feel like myself) I was once mistaken for a boy. This was in the 1970s when it was common for girls to have short hair.

But nonetheless, after the initial, transitory feeling of being insulted, I actually found the experience very interesting. It was interesting the way the boys viewed me as a result of them thinking I was male. It was different to how they would have viewed me if they had identified that I was actually a girl....and for those few moments I quite enjoyed the liberation of it. I was afforded more space, and more kudos, somehow. A strong childhood memory

I've always appreciated masculine beauty...and have a very definite male aesthetic that I find attractive. Beautiful Adonis types......youthful and masculine, but also quite gracious and feminised with accessories, and an unselfconscious apprection for looking good, stylish, fit etc. Not beefy, but muscular and masculine...athletic.....very much the Greek archetype.

Anyway, as a young women ( but also still now all of these years later and as a grandmother) I used to look at such young men on the streets and admire them...and my feeling was always that I was doing so as a gay man. My gaze, adoration and 'ownership' of their beauty felt very masculine. That was my feeling. I can understand why men find other men attractive.

Having said that I have also been very much into what I would call my 'goddess' femininity and sexuality. The deep feeling of the power of being female, and the beauty, and the pull, and the power of that. I think we ( women) all have an inner masculine, male self, and men have an inner feminine, female self.

Hi @Seethlaw , thank you for posting here, and sharing your experience. May I ask a question, which of course you don't have to answer as it's a bit off topic? If I understood you correctly, you say you have a son. I'm just curious how parenthood fitted into your journey, and how it fits with the way you see yourself (e.g. if you are the biological mother, how does that fit with identifying as a man).