Page 15 | Thank You from a Trans Lurker

Seethlaw · 2025-05-01T15:42:42+00:00

I want to thank you all wonderful people for fighting the good fight despite everything that's been thrown at you. I was an intermittent lurker for years before your arguments finally made it through my barriers. I'm in awe of your courage and tenacity and impossible patience! I'm a trans man from another European country. I used to be extremely baffled by you GC people. I couldn't help but wonder what on Earth possessed you to go after trans people. I couldn't understand how anyone could think that trans people, that minuscule minority, was any kind of threat to anyone. I was devastated when I learned that one of my favourite authors (not JKR) had "gone TERF". Again and again, I went back to what I thought were the basics: there is nothing wrong with being trans, and we just want to live our lives in peace. But stuff happened over the years, some in real life and some on MN where I would lurk once in a while. Coincidentally, it was on the day of the UKSC ruling that I found myself here again, and I was absolutely horrified, and I finally accepted the unacceptable: it was never the TERFs going after the trans. It was the trans going after women's places and even the very definition of the word "woman". Since then, I've watched the fallout of the SC decision. And my stomach has been sinking as trans person after trans person has come here, trotted out the same old, long-debunked arguments, and hurled abuse and disrespect in the name of "Me, me, me!" And the thing is, I can't even fool myself that they are not "real" trans people. Back when I transitioned, more than a decade ago, in my country, I searched for trans support groups, and I encountered that very phenomenon of trans people (mostly trans women, though by no means all of them) demanding that the world twist around them. I told myself then that they were not representative of trans people, but the thing is: they are the loudest ones, and the most demanding ones - and as such, the most visible ones. I don't know yet what I can or will do about that, but at least now I'm aware that when people talk about trans people, they might be thinking of such individuals. Thank you to anyone who read that far, and thank you again for everything you've done. You people rock 👍 !!

WinterFoxes · 03/05/2025 13:57

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:49

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

I'm interested in why you validate your internal map of your body more than your actual physique.

Did you ever explore accepting your body in its unaltered form and celebrating and honoring it for what it naturally was, physically?

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 13:53

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 13:33

"my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman."

Only if she were using it to request a special right to enter women's spaces just for herself, I think. Just saying, "I'm different from most other trans women I've met in this and that ways" would have no reason to be received badly.

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I think the bottom line is OP that you're accepted here specifically because you're a woman and not because of your identity as a trans man. Which is fine and understandable but it's still denying something you feel is your inner and outer being. I just wonder how that feels to you? I know there are no easy answers to all this.

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 13:46

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/05/2025 13:13

I have wondered about phantom limbs and how they relate to an internal body map, so I looked into whether people born with missing limbs experience it.

Extremely interesting - the answer seems to be usually not BUT it can be induced eg by looking at images of yourself with the limb added. So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body.

I think we (the self aware ego part of us that can observe, conclude and act with agency) underestimate just how good the brain is at fooling itself. We probably have to because if we second guessed our perceptions and memories all the time we'd go mad.

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Apologies for the slight derail - talking about plasticity and how good the brain is at fooling itself - has anyone tried the 'rubber hand illusion'?
A few years ago I used to spend time trying different settings for this, and it is very spooky how quickly your brain incorporates external parts as your own body (even objects which are obvioulsy not!).

@Seethlaw - I've just found this about lateralaty which might apply for you in particular: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1357650X.2016.1273940

PeachCrow · 03/05/2025 13:35

Great to hear from you OP.

Over the years I have ventured on here occasionally under different user names to attempt to put the trans man point of view. Always been eaten alive so tread carefully!

My son and I have coexisted very happily for 11 years with him as a trans man and me as staunchly gender critical. He's 23 now and there's absolutely no doubt it's the right thing for him albeit I would have wished him an easier life.

We ventured ventured into support groups early on but it wasn't right for either of us. I was horrified by the parents (I went from clueless to gender critical practically on the spot) and he wasn't interested in being a poster child or a campaigner.

I hope that you and he are able to continue living your lives away from the noise and the judgement.

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 13:33

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 13:26

I don't want to belabour the point but again your comment
my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman.
Im not trying to pick at you, just trying to understand the differences in attitude. @soupycustard 's points do go a long way in explaining this to me.

Edited

Show quote history

"my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman."

Only if she were using it to request a special right to enter women's spaces just for herself, I think. Just saying, "I'm different from most other trans women I've met in this and that ways" would have no reason to be received badly.

OP posts:

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 13:26

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 12:37

You mean, I present as I do, as a man, and nobody accepts my request to treat me as a man? Hmm... Well, my case is a bit special, because in my case, it's not so much the request that matters, as the statement. I feel bad when I don't present myself to others as male; I feel like I'm lying about who I truly am. So as long as I'm allowed to present as male, I don't feel bad. Sure, if nobody played along, I'd likely feel sad, but I wouldn't feel like a fraud, which is what matters most. Unlike some other trans people, I don't need much validation or affirmation of my gender from other people, so it wouldn't be so bad.

Now, if I weren't at all allowed to present like a man... Well, it already happened: for years, I erased my knowledge of my trans identity from my consciousness, and presented as a woman. I wasn't being true to myself, but I felt no guilt, and still don't now, because it wasn't my choice. It was the choice of the people who had power over me. It was them who wanted me to lie, so they got a lie.

I imagine it would be the same in a society were transitioning is not allowed or not recognised: I would present a lie, but I wouldn't feel bad about it, because it wouldn't be my choice. Sure, it would be hard to constantly play pretend, to be an actor playing a role, but I don't think it would be any harder than other hardships I've had to go through.

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I don't want to belabour the point but again your comment
my case is a bit special
would not go down well coming from a trans woman.
Im not trying to pick at you, just trying to understand the differences in attitude. @soupycustard 's points do go a long way in explaining this to me.

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 13:25

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/05/2025 13:13

I have wondered about phantom limbs and how they relate to an internal body map, so I looked into whether people born with missing limbs experience it.

Extremely interesting - the answer seems to be usually not BUT it can be induced eg by looking at images of yourself with the limb added. So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body.

I think we (the self aware ego part of us that can observe, conclude and act with agency) underestimate just how good the brain is at fooling itself. We probably have to because if we second guessed our perceptions and memories all the time we'd go mad.

Show quote history

"So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body."

Interesting! So if I understand well, my brain would have imagined a version of myself with a male body, and for some reason, swapped it with the actual inner map of my body?

Hmm... That brings up a few questions:

What was it that made this male version of me so attractive?
How does the swap happen, in terms of brain activity?
Why is it so persistent?

Food for thought. Thank you!

OP posts:

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 13:17

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:59

I used to have a similar 'proprioception theory' about transexualism, but after years of reading FWR I came to the conclusion that it did not make much sense.
Maybe I should re-visit it?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10128397/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22364652/

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Wow, thanks for those links! Very very interesting studies...

As for revisiting your theory: I think one problem is going to be that not all trans people likely feel the same. I don't identify at all with the way some other trans people describe their experience, and vice versa. But I for one would be fine discussing this with you if you want.

OP posts:

FlirtsWithRhinos · 03/05/2025 13:13

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2025 12:11

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

Show quote history

I have wondered about phantom limbs and how they relate to an internal body map, so I looked into whether people born with missing limbs experience it.

Extremely interesting - the answer seems to be usually not BUT it can be induced eg by looking at images of yourself with the limb added. So I can certainly imagine that trans people with deep seated feelings of "the wrong body" are reacting to a subconscious projection of themself as the other sex rather than an innate miswiring of their body.

I think we (the self aware ego part of us that can observe, conclude and act with agency) underestimate just how good the brain is at fooling itself. We probably have to because if we second guessed our perceptions and memories all the time we'd go mad.

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 13:09

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:54

@Seethlaw thank you for your detailed explanations and openness to discuss the subject.

I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

So do you believe in a gendered soul/brain?

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As far as believing in souls go, then yes. That's exactly how I described myself to a believing friend: a male soul in a female body.

Gendered brains, however... That's a much more complicated matter.

I do believe that brains are somewhat plastic, so can be moulded to a point by external influences. So for example, I believe that socialisation may possibly lead to differences in how male and female brains end up functioning.

I also believe, for having experienced it myself, in the power of hormones, so I believe that brains flooded by male or female hormones may possibly end up functioning differently.

But I also believe that those differences, if they exist, may very well be negligeable.

OP posts:

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:59

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2025 12:11

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

Show quote history

I used to have a similar 'proprioception theory' about transexualism, but after years of reading FWR I came to the conclusion that it did not make much sense.
Maybe I should re-visit it?

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10128397/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22364652/

Examining the prevalence of trans phantoms among transgender, nonbinary and gender diverse individuals: An exploratory study - PMC

Trans phantoms are bodily sensations of gendered body parts that a person was not born with (i.e., a phantom penis experienced by a trans man, or a phantom vagina experienced by a trans woman). This is distinct from the experience of many ...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10128397/

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 12:57

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:17

I wonder the same.
As it's been said many many times here - male/female are biological realities.

Also, I wanted to ask @Seethlaw - do you think you are perceived as a man or as a transman?

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"do you think you are perceived as a man or as a transman?"

Hmm, hard to say.

I used to think that those who know me only saw me as a trans man, but then I sometimes get remarks or questions thrown my way that people would only tell to a biological man, so it seems that some of them do see me as a man?

With strangers, it's even harder to tell. Well, those who call me Ma'am obviously see me as a woman :D Of those who call me Sir, I obviously can't know how many genuinely see me as a man, and how many clock me as a trans man.

OP posts:

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:54

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:49

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

@Seethlaw thank you for your detailed explanations and openness to discuss the subject.

I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

So do you believe in a gendered soul/brain?

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 12:52

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2025 12:11

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

Show quote history

"I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality?"

No, but only because I wouldn't know where to start. I'm open to suggestions, though!

"How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one?"

Note that I don't claim to know how men feel about their body. I'm just describing my own inner sensations.

"Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception."

Yep, exactly: something akin to proprioception, that's exactly it! And coincidentally or not, I actually have a very bad sense of proprioception. For example, I keep bumping into things because my body parts are not where I think they are. Another example is how as a kid, I loved playing sports, but I was abysmally bad at them. One reason was that I was a leftie being trained as a rightie, but another was that I had no idea where my body parts were unless I could look at them. I couldn't trust that what I was doing was what I meant to do. I would know and see in my head what move I meant to do, but my actual performance of it would be completely erratic.

"I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before."

I'm afraid in my case it's closer to body integrity dysphoria, where people want to remove a working limb or disable in some way an able body, precisely because they have a distorted mental body image.

OP posts:

soupycustard · 03/05/2025 12:50

It's an interesting point PhoebesPony.
To me the different way in which transmen are viewed versus transwomen does have a logic to it.
I'm not going to pick up on Seethlaw's explanations and 'cross-examine' in the way I perhaps would a transwoman because fundamentally, Seethlaw comes across as an open honest thoughtful and reasonable person and will not either impinge on my sex-based rights or, being biologically female, be a risk to me in the way a biological male would.
I think this thread is the perfect example of what posters always say: we are not 'transphobic'. The battles are not about trans per se but about women and our right to take our place in society with the necessary help of sex-based protections.
Seethlaw as a transman and I as a woman can perfectly happily co-exist in this brilliantly diverse soup of humanity we all live in. I can't on the other hand happily co-exist with an intact male who screams 'kill terfs' because he wants to wave his willy round a female changing room.

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 12:37

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 12:00

But if no one accepted you socially as a man and insisted you are a woman would you be ok with that? Would you still be able to live a happy life if how you see yourself was unacceptable?

Show quote history

You mean, I present as I do, as a man, and nobody accepts my request to treat me as a man? Hmm... Well, my case is a bit special, because in my case, it's not so much the request that matters, as the statement. I feel bad when I don't present myself to others as male; I feel like I'm lying about who I truly am. So as long as I'm allowed to present as male, I don't feel bad. Sure, if nobody played along, I'd likely feel sad, but I wouldn't feel like a fraud, which is what matters most. Unlike some other trans people, I don't need much validation or affirmation of my gender from other people, so it wouldn't be so bad.

Now, if I weren't at all allowed to present like a man... Well, it already happened: for years, I erased my knowledge of my trans identity from my consciousness, and presented as a woman. I wasn't being true to myself, but I felt no guilt, and still don't now, because it wasn't my choice. It was the choice of the people who had power over me. It was them who wanted me to lie, so they got a lie.

I imagine it would be the same in a society were transitioning is not allowed or not recognised: I would present a lie, but I wouldn't feel bad about it, because it wouldn't be my choice. Sure, it would be hard to constantly play pretend, to be an actor playing a role, but I don't think it would be any harder than other hardships I've had to go through.

OP posts:

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 12:19

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2025 12:11

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

Show quote history

It sounds to me exactly like the way a lot of trans women see themselves. I'm not sure what to make of it.

MyLostUsername · 03/05/2025 12:17

IwantToRetire · 03/05/2025 01:29

I just look on the inside and feel male

Have only just registered this.

So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.

What is "male" to you?

I wonder the same.
As it's been said many many times here - male/female are biological realities.

Also, I wanted to ask @Seethlaw - do you think you are perceived as a man or as a transman?

ArabellaScott · 03/05/2025 12:11

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:49

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

That's interesting about your internal perception. I'm curious whether you ever looked into possible causes why your inner perception was different from reality? Asking in a genuine spirit of attempting to understand.

How could a woman know what it's like to have a male body, as she's never had one? Anyone can imagine, of course, but you seem to be suggesting something different- more like proprioception.

I understand 'phantom limb', but that's after the loss of something that was there before.

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 12:11

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:49

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

If I read this as if it was written by a trans woman (insert appropriate sex etc) then I'm back to my original point about the differences in how trans men and trans women would be spoken to. I don't think it would be accepted in the way you might be.
Don't pile on me lol, I'm working my way through all this!

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 12:00

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:33

"Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?"

Of course. But just as I'm aware that there are limits to my request, they too must respect those limits. One of those limits is that our rights or requests cannot trump other people's rights.

Show quote history

But if no one accepted you socially as a man and insisted you are a woman would you be ok with that? Would you still be able to live a happy life if how you see yourself was unacceptable?

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:49

@IwantToRetire

"I did say I wasn't attempting to speak for OP!"

Oh no, I didn't take it that way, don't worry :) I was just commenting on your post, not correcting you or anything.

"So wonder where did the idea of what was male and what was female come from, so that you are aware that inside you feel male.
What is "male" to you?"

Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel. When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

There are no considerations of behaviour or gender stereotypes in this. Those only come later, on a conscious and deliberate level, when I use them to reinforce to others my claim that I'm a man. When I'm alone with myself, there are no considerations of, "I should do this, and I can't do that." I'm just me - a man with a female body and various interests, some stereotypically male, some stereotypically female, and I don't care either way.

OP posts:

Original poster

Seethlaw · 03/05/2025 11:33

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 01:23

Just to pick up a point :

"I have only made drastic cosmetic changes to my body in order to support my request that I be socially treated as a man"

Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?
I ask because no one picked up on your comment but usually have a lot to say about men requesting to be treated as women socially.
Or is it ok for trans men , i e. socially acceptable but not for trans women?

I get and agree with many things on here and my eyes have been opened to a lot through this thread but a few things don't really sit right still.

Edited

"Do you think it's fair or right that trans women request to be treated socially as a women also?"

Of course. But just as I'm aware that there are limits to my request, they too must respect those limits. One of those limits is that our rights or requests cannot trump other people's rights.

OP posts:

NotbloodyGivingupYet · 03/05/2025 07:47

Thank you @Seethlaw for this thread, it's a breath of fresh air after all the scoldings and Trojan horse threads we've been putting up with. Genuinely interesting questions and answers, from all points of view.
Thank you to @PhoebesPony too for a genuine exchange of views. It helps to clarify thinking when we can take these arguments further without descending into name calling.
I have skin in this game as it were, and have to be careful what I say in real life.
I have real sympathy for trans people who, like the OP, just "know". The reason why some people feel like this isn't clear, but it's increasingly hard to support these people while also trying to protect women's spaces. And it's not their fault or ours. It's the fault of the ridiculous TWAW No Debate movement with its activists shouting down any proper debate or discussion - to the point that this forum was one of the last places left where you could even state biological reality out loud.

PhoebesPony · 03/05/2025 01:52

Re my post above it's a bit like us women turning up to a prostrate clinic or something. Absolutely nuts