Thank You from a Trans Lurker

Meanwhile over on the thread about a teacher possibly being trans, trans people are being called mentally ill and worse, and that they would remove their child from the school. So however nice people might be being to you on this thread don't kid yourself that that is how a lot of people on here feel. It can be incredibly transphobic.

If you are seriously considering genital surgery, you are far braver, or perhaps far more foolhardy, than me. I strongly suggest you look very hard at what it actually involves, preferably without your trans specs on, and at how easily it can have very poor results. Having read what the surgeons do, I am astonished that anyone thinks it is in any way ethical.

@potpourree

"Thank you too for posting"

Thanks. I've been tempted to post for a long time, but honestly been quite nervous about it. I don't want to come across as invading this space or anything like that.

"... and meant wanting to be the opposite sex, I was entirely sympathetic to. It is really interesting hearing your accounts."

Thanks 😊

Yes, it's a story I see time and again in mumsnet posts; initially sympathetic to those struggling, but then encounter the TRA-types and harden stance. I feel TRAs have done us a great disservice.

"The aim with SS spaces is still dignity and safety, so to reduce the risk of harm."

Absolutely. When I read this recent SC judgement, I was actually quite optimistic!

One thing I've personally been worried about is hospital changing rooms; I periodically need a procedure as an out patient at hospital (not trans related) that involves getting changed. They have communal single-sex changing rooms with cubicles. This next time will be my first time having this procedure since transition. I was planning to ring up and explain that I'm trans. Prior to the ruling I was worried the response would be "we're trans inclusive; just use the women's changing room" which I personally would feel incredibly guilty and nervous about, in case I intimidated anyone. Based on the ruling, I thought the "common-sense" outcome would be that there would need to be some provision for trans people, so I assumed they would say "yep, we will arrange a separate room for you to changed in". I'd be totally okay with that. My new fear based on statements by the equalities minister and EHRC is that they will say "you have to use the men's changing room", which I fear will cause a scene. I do not look like a man, and, from experience, most people in the changing room will be in their 80s and would find my presence very confusing or even distressing.

I really hope a sensible solution does shine through. I don't feel it's rocket science! I feel incredibly guilty and selfish about requiring "special treatment" or whatever, but it really doesn't have to be anything fancy or purpose-built, surely I can get changed out of the way in some side room somewhere? Hopefully common sense does prevail.

"And I agree that gender actually shouldn't factor into most instances of how we deal with others. But sex does, and where it matters, it matters, so it's hard to square the circle."

Personally, I don't use women's (or indeed men's!) single sex spaces, even before the ruling. It is really difficult, sometimes you really do need to pee! I plan my life around toilets I know I can use, and try to avoid drinking too much when I'm out. My hope is the ruling implies more third-spaces are needed, from experience there are never enough around.

I personally hope it does suffice to keep things more-or-less as they now stand, saying it is lawful to exclude people in proportionate circumstances based on sex, but without trying to move to some means of enforcing this. I've seen suggestions about preventing trans people from updating their sex on their IDs, but I'd really really prefer if we don't go down that route. I'd suggest we just make it an offence to lie about sex in certain, very specific, situations (e.g. joining a sports team). The CPS has already made clear it'd be a potential offence to lie about sex before having sexual relations with someone. I think that would let trans people like me avoid such situations if we want to, whilst also providing a deterrent to those who would chance it.

@Seethlaw

"For me, it was obviously a big issue while I was transitioning, but after that, it just became another thing in my life like so many others, not some kind of big deal to wrap my life around."

Seems like we see eye to eye on this, it's nice to not feel alone! Thanks again for doing your post 😊

"Makes sense to me. I have zero doubt I'd feel a similar kind of self-confidence if I had a penis (I'm not interested in getting that surgery considering how experimental it still is.)"

Ah yes, very sorry to hear that! My neighbour asked if I thought it was easier for TMs or TWs overall. I said I think socially TMs have the easier time, but medically TWs probably have it easier. Unfortunately, in the UK the waiting time for TW GRS surgery is on the order of 10 years 😭. Hopefully I get there some day! Or save up to go private 🙃

"I personally feel like I'm quite lucky already. The people who know I'm trans don't seem to care. The people who figure it out never have any kind of horrible reaction. Those who seem to take me for a bearded woman are nice too - or maybe they think I'm an unshaved trans woman and they are being respectful? Either way, they've never given me any trouble. Of course, I also think it's easier for me, being a trans man, and being smaller than trans women tend to be, so I don't look as impressive and I don't stand out as much as they can. And of course too, I'm not in the UK, where the TRAs have gone too far and entirely polarised the situation."

Glad to hear it! I also have not yet had a negative reaction or situation too, but close friends have. It really does all seem to come down to passing, which is terribly unfair, but I guess that's life. I doubt doubt that those friends are any less sincere than I am, I just happen to look slightly more the part.

As I say, I hope one day the world can fit us in however we look 😊

Thank you too for posting @TroubledWatersTW

I'll be honest and say I previously assumed most gender dysphoria, when being trans was a bodily problem and meant wanting to be the opposite sex, I was entirely sympathetic to. It is really interesting hearing your accounts.

If it had been left as that I think we wouldn't be where we are today.

And then self-id started and then I changed to thinking that many transgender people were actually motivated by (often unwittingly) sexist stereotypes. (Or sexual extremes...)
And I've had to solidify my position, which would previously have been largely based on vibes, into something more clear-cut and workable. The aim with SS spaces is still dignity and safety, so to reduce the risk of harm. I don't know how we discern the real harmless people from anyone else of that sex. And we can see how hard it is to even describe the feelings we would base that on - so I can see how GRCs came about, as wishy washy as they are ("living as a woman", etc.)

And I agree that gender actually shouldn't factor into most instances of how we deal with others. But sex does, and where it matters, it matters, so it's hard to square the circle.

@Seethlaw

"Yup. I've been wondering what I'd do if a similar situation arose in France, and honestly, it's hard! Again and again, I come back to, "I'd have to join/create a third way," but that's terrifying, because I know that such a group would be hounded by the trans activists, and we can all see how far they go in hounding women."

Absolutely. Fundamentally as a person I'm a follower not a leader. It's difficult to feel like I've got no one to get behind, and I'm not the one to take the risk. But I guess if no one does then the general populace will believe TRAs represent us all. I actually wrote to my MP recently regarding the current situation, trying to put the case that we're not all in agreement with the TRAs. It's the first time I've ever done anything like that in my life.

I mostly just don't want gender to be a big deal in my life. I can't get excited or passionate about it. I transitioned to help alleviate a health problem, I feel that's working great, so I just want to quietly move on. Some seem to make it a big deal, good for them, but it's not how I see it.

"I'm lucky: I never felt repulsed by my breasts. But they felt alien, yes. They didn't belong."

Interesting, yeah! For me pre-transition I never actually felt I was 'missing' breasts, but as soon as I started wearing bras, I started feeling very naked and incomplete whenever I would take them off. I find breasts give a unique sense of "self confidence" that I lacked before?

"Yup. I use the metaphor of the puppeteer: I was a male puppeteer hiding backstage and controlling a female puppet on stage."

Great metaphor 😀

"I do mind when people refer to me as a woman, but only insofar as it makes me feel guilty, thinking I didn't make enough of an effort to present as male. But... I think I should let go of that? 🤔 What does it matter, after all?"

Well, yes quite. People who've known me from before 'misgender' me sometimes, and that is totally fine for me. I've never actually had a stranger 'misgender' me, but I think if they ever did I'd take it that my makeup wasn't very good that day or something! I do actively try to "pass", but only to avoid confrontation; I wouldn't want someone to think I'm a TRA or something, and I feel it's easier if I don't draw attention to myself. In practice this just means I'm doing my makeup and hair in a certain way that I feel helps with passing. I don't do it if I'm not going out for the day, so clearly I'm doing it for others, not myself. If I knew there would be no conflict, then I have no qualms with someone knowing I am trans, nor being 'visibly' trans. Maybe one day we will live in a society that accepting 😊

Another long-time trans lurker (TW) here! Created an account to post. I wanted to echo the sentiments of @Seethlaw in the OP. I'm amused at the thought that there are so many other "nuanced" trans people lurking mumsnet. @changedusernameforthis1 and @VanishingVision in this thread and also that thread by @13J a few weeks ago. There are dozens of us 😂

It's tricky because the 'trans side' of all the debate is dominated by TRA-types, which has had to be met with force from the 'GC side' to fight back. The net result as someone who feels much more nuanced about things is feeling very lost and homeless in the debate. "My side" doesn't represent me or my views at all, and the "other side" can come across very hostile. It's nice to read threads like this one. I'm very aware that posters on mumsnet could be my colleagues or my neighbours, and I really sincerely want to build a society that works for everyone. It's nice to see that posters here do feel the same way.

"Honestly, it doesn't go any further than the body for me. My internal map of my body is that of a male body: large shoulders, flat chest, narrow hips, penis and testicles. To be clear: it's not what I want; it's what I feel." - Seethlaw

I've found this discussion about the feelings behind gender dysphoria very interesting, and I very much echo Seethlaw's perceptive on it. So +1 for people feeling the same way. For me I'd go as far as to say my dysphoria is entirely related to my physical body. It's not social for me at all: I don't care if people view me or refer to me as a man or a woman, it doesn't upset me in any way. As a TW I kind of have the opposite to 'phantom limb', in the sense that I feel I have an extra body part that feels "alien". Throughout my whole life I've always been repulsed by seeing or feeling it. I know intellectually that it's a normal part for a male to have, but ever since I was young child (honestly as long as I can remember) it's always just been a cause of revulsion. I feel in particular this has been devastating to my hopes of finding a partner, as I know that "as a man" I'd be expected to use it.

For me, ironically, it was the lack of any strong conviction that I'm "a woman trapped in a man's body" or anything like that that held me back from transition until adulthood. I used to think that I couldn't possibly have gender dysphoria because I didn't have a sense of "being a woman". Ironically, all those typical phrases you hear about 'gendered souls' put me off transition! I wasn't sure what to make of my feelings about my body. I knew they were related to being trans, but I just thought I wasn't. I was raised in a firmly GC household which I think strongly influenced all of this.

I finally "gave in" at some point and experimented with transition and it was a totally unexpected night-and-day transformation for me. Similar to what Seethlaw said, it suddenly felt that I'd been 'lying' or 'acting' my whole life. The way I behave, speak, and interact with others changed significantly; I'd been subconsciously "performing masculinity" unaware that I'd made myself a caricature of a man. It truly feels that transition has let me "be myself" and many people (including GC family members) have remarked that I very much come across "as a woman" now. This isn't from a desire to "perform feminity" or anything of the sort; like I say I honestly don't mind being referred to as a man. So I think retrospectively I can see why people describe it as "being a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "gendered soul" but those descriptions were completely unhelpful to my understanding of it pre-transition. I can totally see why people don't "get it"; I didn't - and I'm trans!

Anyway, I hope these ramblings are of interest to some. I'd be curious if any of what I've put resonates with you OP, certainly your experiences resonate with some of mine.

Thanks @Seethlaw for taking the time to answer my question about parenthood. I won't claim that it all makes sense to me, but what does come through is that you are at peace with the biological reality of it. I wish you and your family well.

The OP is from France. No need to be so sarcastic.

@IwantToRetire "Not saying it is the same, but for instance many people continue to see themselves as they were when young, and only when looking in a mirror do they realise that they are older. Although that as an experience is probably very easy to explain! But just mean that on one level most of us experience ourselves inside our bodies in a way that does not match with the reality we see and others see"

This is so true and a really interesting way of looking at how a trans person may view themselves with respect to their internal vision of themselves.

@Seethlaw I have not read all the comments but just wanted to wish you all the best.

As usual catching up late on a thread where there are so many interesting points being made. But in response to these points made by OP:

When I close my eyes and keep my hands away from my body and look inside, that's what I "see". Then I open my eyes, and obviously I see that it's different, but the internal map doesn't correct itself, so my brain basically works with a faulty map, trying to adjust to reality all the time.

Not saying it is the same, but for instance many people continue to see themselves as they were when young, and only when looking in a mirror do they realise that they are older. Although that as an experience is probably very easy to explain! But just mean that on one level most of us experience ourselves inside our bodies in a way that does not match with the reality we see and others see.

What was it that made this male version of me so attractive?

That's what made me ask earlier about why male. And in the examples I gave from another thread of women erasing the most female part of themselves so as not be objectified, is this just the other side of the same thing? That in this society, men by and large are more likely to be listened to, and in the street less likely to be thought an easy prey. So is it that the male persona is a refuge from the vulnerable actual female body.

For example, I keep bumping into things because my body parts are not where I think they are. Another example is how as a kid, I loved playing sports, but I was abysmally bad at them. One reason was that I was a leftie being trained as a rightie, but another was that I had no idea where my body parts were unless I could look at them. I couldn't trust that what I was doing was what I meant to do. I would know and see in my head what move I meant to do, but my actual performance of it would be completely erratic.

Please note! I am not a medical practioner. But that could your childhood experience be dyspraxia - which I now see is called Developmental co-ordination disorder (DCD).

Only because I was like that as a child, and was just known as a clumsy child. But years later, when having to have physiotherapy, the person treating me asked if I had ever asked to be diagnosed (one way or the other).

So what is so interesting is that in some instances experiences are common, but we each find different was of dealing with them or learning to live with them. Or threading them into who we are today.

I wonder how much those periods in history when the perfect male body was regarded with respect, whilst women's bodies were seen as those messy, curvy (not always!) things that things happened to like bleed, give birth, and breast feed, are still influential today. Although being the 21st century are now commodified, artificially enhanced, and another competitive pressure.

I'm not up to date with the thread yet, but just wanted to post that this is FASCINATING, because over the years I have suggested this as a sort of "phantom limb" when talking here to trans people - ie I ask if your body feels male, is it like hallucinating body parts or a phantom limb type feeling? And no-one has ever said "yes, sort of" but to me that was a kind of logical suggestion (if it's genuinely nothing like masculinity, perceived strength, etc).

I always wondered if it was a ludicrous suggestion so it's slightly reassuring to see that the possibilities I tried to think of as comparators weren't all ridiculous!

@Nickers1234 - HRT, my lovely! Bloody marvellous stuff. I no longer want to kill everyone, am not drenched with sweat 8 times a day with hot flushes and my brain fog has mostly cleared.

Yes I know what you mean regarding the use of the word “ally”. I chose that word as I have a brain-foggy tired brain (menopause/ chronic health condition) and it seemed easier to type that than describe my 40-year friendships with, and vocal support of, many lesbians and gay men. This is why I mostly lurk instead of contributing as it takes a lot out of my little brain to get involved these days and I do not always manage to express myself clearly enough😊Completely agree re last paragraph.

Once upon a time, before all this happened , back when I assumed transwomen were our allies against patriachal gender constructs, I read an article by a transwomen talking about how the world did or didn't change for him after transitioning.

He said as a "woman" he could mostly still get the respect/attention from men professionally that he had had as a man and he thought it was because he knew how men communicate and women didn't. He said he could see the men were actually communicating the same way with women and men, but the women were missing cues that men were tuned in to. (And I'm sure the other way round also, but he probably missed those).

I'm not saying he was right of course - his colleagues knew him as a man before, and of course he'd never had the lifetime experiences of how men respond to women trying to interact with them in a "man way" - but still it was such a positive, "as a trans woman this is what I learned by transitioning that I want to share with you" perspective instead of today's "as a trans woman I am going to tell you why I know what womanhood is better than you" that it has stayed with me for years. I hope the author maintained that perspective.

The SC judgement in itself won't change anything as it was simply a confirmation of the meaning of the Equality Act. The actions of TRAs over the last 10/15 years however may have made the law trickier to navigate in practice. In the sense that when we all accepted that there are 2 sexes and that females need sex-based rights, there was still the possibility of a sort of 'fudge' where on an individual basis someone genuinely just popping into a cubicle for a quick pee in the 'wrong' toilet didn't seem particularly important. Now it's become important because it's been used and gloated about as an act of abuse. But I think that as this thread has shown, transmen won't be vilified by women, and men won't feel threatened so although of course they could act like idiots and be rude, I can't imagine that many of them would be hugely bothered even if they noticed. I guess what I'm saying is that if the clarity in the law helps control access to spaces by aggressive TRAs, we'll all go back to sort of muddling along together.

Well yes, in order to be open and honest possibly and not 'trick' anyone as it was put. I'm not sure if it's better to go by stealth or just come out with upfront.