Thank You from a Trans Lurker

Oui, ne vous inquietez pas, OP.

Pas de problème 😁

Re France, it's good to hear more about the situation there.

Feminists have been violently attacked by trans activists, had the usual death threats, etc:

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/anti-prostitution-group-protest-attacked-in-paris

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5170741-trans-activists-set-off-explosion-in-attempt-to-sabotage-conference-critical-of-gender-ideology-france

https://www.womensdeclaration.com/en/country-info/france/statement-from-r%C3%A9sistance-lesbienne-about-paris-pride-2021/

It may well not get reported on much; that doesn't mean there isn't stuff happening.

Up until a very few years back, nothing would be reported on in the UK despite feminists getting similar abuse and threats etc. Organising was done underground.

There are some French feminist and lesbian groups involved: https://www.womensdeclaration.com/en/country-info/france/

Yes, sorry for the slight derail. I was still quite angry at Phoebe berating this board for being intemperate/suggesting our tone was nasty. And responding to discussion of mental health issues and classifiction of dysphoria.

'Some people being rude' is clearly not even slightly equivalent to CSA or abuse, and that is why many of us are here and concerned about various aspects of gender activism - and that was what set me off. Phoebe's attitude strikes me as uncomfortably similar to Lucy Powell's.

There are long and quite complicated histories to some of the issues and I appreciate they sound quite bizarre if one isn't aware. WPATH themselves are quite the story.

Mais on n’est pas des mecs, @Seethlaw !

@Seethlaw and friends. I'm just popping in to say I am following the conversations on this thread and am so pleased that you feel able to speak out. Please stick around and contribute to the forum or lurk as you see fit. It is of great value to have you here.
I can't speak for a single other person on the forum (none of us can!) but I personally feel that we are fighting an existential battle for the sex-class of women and for the safeguarding of children against a dangerous, entitled and misogynistic male-rights movement. If you are not in support of this male-rights movement, then our anger and humour is not being directed against you. If you read something that seems hurtful, please look at the activist that it is aimed at and you will find that they have said or done something against women's or children's interests. In particular, if the activist is a transwomen then remember that, in the context of the fight for women's sex based rights, to us they are members of the male sex-class. The criticism is aimed at them as males (not as transwomen). We are expressing anger at male oppression; this is not the same as transphobia. That's not to say lines don't get crossed sometimes, but part of any debate is to try to find where the lines should be drawn. It's just my personal view, but I hope it does make sense.

The whole ‘but what are you gonna do about the 6ft tall, burly bearded transmen in your lavatories?’ cracks me up - are they really trying to convince us that transmen (female) are more of a danger than transwomen (male) when as far as I can recall no UK transman has ever been convicted of murder and only a handful have been convicted of a sex crime? And that’s usually of the sex-by-deception variety which is obviously still a completely unacceptable violation of their partner’s consent but not a behaviour we need to fear in a public lavatory (unlike all the transwomen convicted of violent sex crimes/ sex crimes against children etc).

That the most high profile transman in the world right now is the teeny-tiny Elliot Page is also somewhat inconvenient for the ‘Oooh, but scary transmen’ argument!

So would I!

Thank you, I'm not surprised re your picnic, loudest voices in the room etc.

I think I'd feel pretty furious that I was ignored only to be wheeled out as an afterthought, but your tone is very measured as it has been all along, and I think as you implied, we know why. Thanks for your reply. I'm glad you started this thread.

Before that I think most peopel were comfortable with a TG woman as someone who has been assessed and participated in therapy, part of which is they will never be the sex that they wish to be, but they won't be the sex they were born as. In that assessment there would obviously be some risk assessment about whether they are a danger to women, but with self-ID that goes out the window.

There has never been any risk assessment in the GRA. Before surgery and medication there are assessments to make sure the patient understands the implications to themselves, but the potential harms to anyone else is not assessed.

@Seethlaw , sorry if i missed this being asked before, but what do you think about the fact that transmen were basically ignored in the debate until the Supreme Court ruling and are now being used as a kind of 'gotcha' by people who ignored their needs before?

This thread is so interesting.

Something that I noticed from the SCR and the protests that followed is the definition of "Trans" has widely expanded from when the EA was written in 2010.

Before that I think most peopel were comfortable with a TG woman as someone who has been assessed and participated in therapy, part of which is they will never be the sex that they wish to be, but they won't be the sex they were born as. In that assessment there would obviously be some risk assessment about whether they are a danger to women, but with self-ID that goes out the window.

I think the TG community needs to start being exclusive about what characteristics do need protection and which don't. Personally I think inclusion in sports is where the tide started to turn from mild eyebrow raising to full on critique. Laurel Hubbard should never have been allowed to participate in the weightlifting.

Thanks @Seethlaw that's really interesting. So I assume you don't have queues of actors wringing their hands and repeating "TWAW" and signing letters announcing their allyship either? It's both fascinating and terrifying how two close countries can have taken different paths on the issue. I think the biggest impact in the UK has been how so many public bodies have totally captured and the insidious impact it's had on women's rights.

I suppose my post sounded rather defeatist 🤣 it wasn't supposed to!

Bienvenue et merci bcp @Seethlaw and the other delurking trans posters on this thread. It's been an interesting read and good to hear voices like yours.

@Seethlaw has there been much coverage of the UKSC judgment in France? I wonder what the reaction has been like. You will have seen in the UK it has been quite polarised.

Also @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW have been really interesting on this thread.

They have posted their views eloquently and thought-provokingly, riding a white horse in to bat for them when they clearly don't need people making assumptions about how they SHOULD feel is a bit patronising.

It is a little presumptuous to assume what a transgender person would think about those threads and posts when the OP has said many times that they don't agree. Virtue signalling a bit there from @PhoebesPony

Which I think has been a major issue, for example, from the SNP.