Thank You from a Trans Lurker

How interesting and refreshing to read this full and frank discussion. Shows how the ‘no debate’ view has held back this conversation. One that might have helped resolution and better support, and far less harm, for children, teens and parents if these conversations had been allowed a decade ago.

Thanks for the insight, @TroubledWatersTW

It feels quite refreshing to actually exchange information and views that isn't point-scoring! (And I wish this happened more often)

Jusr wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree that non-consensual sexual behaviour is a serious soceital problem, and that the motivation is irrelevant, it needs dealing with.

That said, my understanding is that non-consensuality is not part of the definition of AGP. Though it certainly is an aspect in some cases.

Sorry, I'm on mobile so can't respond more properly or reread the link you sent.

Blanchard discusses definitions in this paper.

https://link.springer.com/epdf/10.1007/s10508-005-4343-8

It doesn't really matter to others what a man's sex fantasies are, unless they involve non consensual participation.

Any male seeking access to women's spaces is motivated at root on the basis of a sexual drive.

His demand is in itself evidence that his motivations are sexual.

I've certainly seen it defined that way before Arabella, but I don't think that's how Dr Blanchard originally defined it, nor how a lot of the follow on literature I've read defined it.

Certainly if it's defined that way it's a very different scope and 'problem', my posts were referring to Blanchard's definitions.

AGP, otherwise known as transvestic fetishism, is a paraphilia. As with most paraphilias, it is predicated on the basis of non consensual participation. A transvestic fetishist gets off on the responses of other people. The victims have not consented to these acts, thats the point. Whether it's discomfort or outrage, the victims' responses are the point.

The charged acts often involve exhibitionism, but can also include theft of fetishistic items like underwear, frotting, etc.

So no, it can not and should not be sanctioned and supported. Any more than other paraphilias can or should be accepted. It's no different an argument than the 'MAP' acceptance movement.

Regardless of what any activists say, I think we can agree with the evidence of our eyes that trans people do indeed fall into different categories, with different needs and I think it would make sense for this to be handled.

@TheHappyBug
This is what has baffled me all along. My husband is a trans man and he would rather cut off his own ear than advertise that fact. He just wants to get on with his life as his chosen gender and it not be “a thing”.

I always think there are two groups of people, trans people and then attention seeking folk who aren’t really trans, they just want special attention and see this as a way of getting it.
There are probably a lot more than two categories. But yes, I agree with Seethlaw and your husband that day-to-day I really don't want to be having deal with or think about the fact I'm trans, so seek to pass for that reason. Deep down I don't care if people know though, I just worry about experiencing harassment or abuse. If I knew no one would treat me any worse, I'd be happy for everyone to know. I wonder if your husband feels the same?

@JamieCannister
Perhaps the first level of AGP is "I get off imagining myself as a woman"
The next level is "I feel uncomfortable in my body because it gets in the way of getting off imagining myself as a woman".
Well, my personal experience would be the exact opposite to what you describe. Again it depends on the definition as to whether or not I would count as AGP, but my gender dysphoria dates back to young childhood (external evidence exists by age 6, I'd self-report it started even younger, as long as I remember). Then during puberty my sexuality developed, and could be characterised as AGP. I imagine this way round to be a common scenario, but who knows? Because my gender dysphoria is anatomical, it's perhaps not surprising that the AGP would be too.

I think that in the real world it is a bit of moot point - we can't tell who is gender dysphoric and we can't tell who is AGP, so we kind of have to treat them the same. But in an ideal world I would do the impossible and make it a serious criminal sexual offence to take autogynephilia or transvestic fetishism public, and only allow gender dysphoric people to cross dress. I know this can't be done (and certainly not without authoritarian laws which are undesirable).
I hope we can all agree that anti-crossdressing laws are a huge issue! Who dictates what counts? Hopefully indecent exposure laws suffice.

Again I think thought that you're viewing it as people are either honestly suffering (GD) or dishonest perverts (AGP) and not that actually in many cases it's both. Dr Anne Lawrence describes that GD is the push that makes someone reject their birth sex and AGP is the pull that draws them towards the other. It's an interesting way of looking at it.

An interesting counter-intuitive statistic I have seen is that those with AGP are more likely to get SRS, and to be genuinely satisfied with the result, than those without. It's a head scratcher for sure.

For all these reasons I think your suggestions that AGPs should be treated with hostility and restraint, whereas GD people should be supported, is missing the point of the real interaction between these things. I think the truth is unpleasant and messy, but so much better to understand the world from a position of truth. For years psychiatrists considered AGP to be a contra-indication to GD and therefore transexuals learned to hide their AGP in order to be allowed surgery and hormone treatment. These people both honestly experience GD and want to transition, and honestly do experience AGP arousal. They just learn to hide the latter.

In my head, an ideal society would accept that some boys are going to be experiencing AGP and, rather than treating them like criminals, would provide positive role models for how they can manage their lives. What is such a boy expected to do in today's society? Hide it and be ashamed. Or transition and be celebrated as a trans woman. I personally think it's the people that have been repressing and hiding it for years that end up with a very unhealthy and dysfunctional relationship with their sexuality that leads them to do awful things. If they had a socially acceptable outlet from a young age, I tend to think it would be less of a problem.

While I broadly agree with what you're saying, I think the being 'really trans' idea is a bit of a red herring. There is no criteria for being 'really trans'. We are told that anyone who says they are trans, are trans.

This is what has baffled me all along. My husband is a trans man and he would rather cut off his own ear than advertise that fact. He just wants to get on with his life as his chosen gender and it not be “a thing”.

I always think there are two groups of people, trans people and then attention seeking folk who aren’t really trans, they just want special attention and see this as a way of getting it.

However, per Blanchard's formulation and definition of AGP, I would count as having anatomical AGP because I only experience arousal if I'm imagining e.g. having a boyfriend with me having a female body.

Interesting. I guess this is what's being depicted by Frank's character in White Lotus, if anyone is familiar with that?

Perhaps the first level of AGP is "I get off imagining myself as a woman"

The next level is "I feel uncomfortable in my body because it gets in the way of getting off imagining myself as a woman".

I don't know for sure

I think that in the real world it is a bit of moot point - we can't tell who is gender dysphoric and we can't tell who is AGP, so we kind of have to treat them the same. But in an ideal world I would do the impossible and make it a serious criminal sexual offfence to take autogynephilia or transvestic fetishism public, and only allow gender dysphoric people to cross dress. I know this can't be done (and certainly not without authoritarian laws which are undesirable).

Why not bring up my other points on this thread if you want?

I second this

Sincere willingness to engage is always appreciated, Phoebe.

Yes, it's the gender based stereotypes they are largely at fault here. As a kid growing up un the 80s with a stay at home dad with Asd tendencies, who played with us, but cricket, we made bow and arrows, climbed trees, built dams in the local stream, science kits,, most of our projects were from a 1950s book of things for boys etc, we would have been transed these days.

Saying that, he also built a massive castle for my my little ponies.

Whereas I was just a tomboy who grew up into a teen that wore inappropriate clothing and make up, still loves cricket and football as an adult, and am happy as I am. Labelling does no one any good.

Wow thanks for all that information, it's so interesting and I will definitely look into the links you mentioned. I'm just about to go to bed, very tired lol, so I will reply more to you tomorrow. It would be so much better if people could be open about this, I do think the secrecy that is forced really onto boys/maybe girls too, not sure, just makes it so much worse for people with AGP. Its the stereotypes that we live with, both for males and females. It's much harder I think for boys to display any feminine traits than vice versa.
Just want to say to everyone on this thread, I know I've been a pain in parts of it and I apologise. I am genuine and wasn't trying to wind anyone up deliberately. I'm just really interested in the subject and freely admit that although I'm not completely thick I haven't worked through all my thoughts on the subject and tend to flip-flop and sometimes get confused and annoyed by things that don't seem to make sense to me. I still do think trans women have a tougher ride of it (don't jump on me!).but I can understand more of the reasons from women's perspectives I think. So, I'm sorry and I hope I didn't spoil the thread too much as it's been fascinating.

Just been catching up on this thread and wanted to offer my thanks to the OP @Seethlaw and others for a truly fascinating and insightful thread. I learned a great deal from it.

Absolutely, and I certainly wouldn't be transitioning a child based on that as "evidence"!

But in my case I really did end up being attracted to men and having gender dysphoria. Perhaps there is some correlation, perhaps there isn't.

Boys liking pink is a definite sign that they like the colour pink.

@PhoebesPony
If I'm really honest I'd happily send a daughter to school with a short haircut and typical boys clothes but if a son wanted to go wearing a dress and hair in a ponytail I would find that a bit difficult. It's wrong and I don't agree with myself haha 😂 but there it is.

Oh this actually happened to me apparently! So I don't remember, but mum says that when I was about 4 or 5 I apparently asked if I could have a pink set of duvet and pillow covers for my bed. She felt I would be bullied if other kids saw, so she said no! She felt like I might be unhappy with my current room so she ultimately instead redecorated my room into a masculine (and very cool!) space theme. I really don't remember any of this, but it's interesting in the context of thinking back on signs from childhood.

I think there are quite a few misconceptions around AGP. If people are interested 'Gender: A Wider Lens' had an episode interviewing Ray Blanchard who originally formulated AGP as a feature of some trans women (actually, the majority). I think the trouble is that the quick explanation "some men have a fetish about being women" evokes a strong negative reaction in just about everyone who hears it (trans and not)! It's not something a lot of people want to engage with or learn the finer points of, understandably!

I think a key misconception is that people with AGP can't also have gender dysphoria. That these people aren't trans; they just have a fetish. In reality, genuine GD and AGP are strongly correlated. I do wonder if it's partly just what happens to teenage boys experiencing GD as their sexuality develops. Particularly the shame aspect of not being a 'proper' man. Though some people claim to just have AGP and not GD and vice versa. It's not the sort of thing people like admitting though!

I'm not so sure of the whole wide theory of AGP, but certainly we've all encountered trans women online who squarely fit the bill! Particularly, it seems to well describe the motivations behind some cross dressers and men who invade women's spaces and perform illicit acts.

However, per Blanchard's formulation and definition of AGP, I would count as having anatomical AGP because I only experience arousal if I'm imagining e.g. having a boyfriend with me having a female body. I genuinely don't however experience any arousal as a result of cross dressing, entering women's spaces, performing 'feminine' activities, etc. Nevertheless in the original formulation, what I experience counts as AGP, which is what makes me slightly sceptical about that definition, but I don't make the rules! As I've mentioned up thread, I've also had gender dysphoria of the body dysmorphic kind since very young childhood.

For the interested, I think a very interesting resource on AGP is actually the subreddit /r/askagp. It's probably not what you'd expect! It's text-only and is almost entirely long discussion posts of people coming to terms with the fact that they have AGP and figuring out how to manage their lives from there. In many ways it is quite heartbreaking, people are generally quite distraught when they come to terms with the fact that they have AGP, and most desperately wish to be rid of it.

Regardless of the finer details of the definitions of AGP, I do think it's a shame that it has been so thoroughly suppressed by the trans movement. It's uncomfortable to admit, but right now there will be teenage boys starting to experience these feelings, and since it's never mentioned or discussed anywhere they can see, they end up feeling like freaks and hiding in shame. I certainly did; I couldn't work out why my arousal worked the way it did. Was I just a 'normal' gay male, or did it weirdly mean that I was somehow straight? Either way, it felt like something to be very ashamed of!

Anyway, sorry for the big derail tangent, it's something I've thought a lot about!

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this thread and feel I’ve learned a lot, from everyone. I would love to read a conversation-style book, discussing their experiences of being trans in the context of FWR between @Seethlaw , @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW (and other contributors I don’t recall names of, sorry)

I am only halfway through the thread, but I want to thank the participants, especially @Seethlaw , @TroubledWatersTW , @changedusernameforthis1 and @VanishingVision. It's been an education. Is there a Hall of Fame for best threads at Mumsnet? I'd nominate this one :-).