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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guilty Feminist on Triggernometry

216 replies

CornedBeef451 · 01/05/2025 09:46

I’m trying to listen to Deborah Frances White on Triggernometry but having to do it in very small increments for the sake of my blood pressure.

Konstantin is remaining incredibly calm, Deborah is losing her mind via passive aggression, and after only 15 mins I was shouting “but which ones have the babies Deborah?” at my phone.

Its worth a listen even if just for entertainment value. It’s quite long so I think it’ll take me a week to get through unless I start day drinking.

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sandgreen · 02/05/2025 10:23

I didn’t intend to listen to the whole thing, but was stunned into submission. By the end of it she still believes she will convert listeners who prefer her PASSION and FEELINGS over KK’s nasty right wing insistence on facts, and her fans will enjoy the conversation too.

It was one of the strangest interviews I’ve ever heard.

SionnachRuadh · 02/05/2025 09:53

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:22

None her arguments seem to actual arguments. Talking about the status of orphan being socially constructed in no way relates to the sex of an actual body. I can’t decide if she is deluded or just stupid.

The thing about the status of orphan is, that's quite an easy thing to define.

What society does with orphans varies quite a lot according to time and place. I have these examples from my own family:

  • Children who were formally adopted
  • Children who were informally adopted, usually by extended family, before the formal adoption system was introduced
  • Children who were never adopted and grew up in care
  • Children who, thanks to the lack of children's services in 19th century Ireland, were put on a boat to Australia

None of that actually changes what an orphan is.

I don't want to assume DFW is being stupid, but I think she's really taking an aesthetic approach of saying this thing superficially resembles that thing and so they're basically the same, and this justifies her position on some other thing.

It's a demonstration of Scott Adams' argument that we think we arrive at our positions rationally, but more often we just adopt them viscerally and rationalise them afterwards based on confirmation bias and magical thinking.

Lottapianos · 02/05/2025 09:17

'The guilty part of her podcast was things like, “I’m a feminist but I don’t feel dressed unless I wear lipstick”'

I listened to 2 episodes of her podcast a few years ago and just had to give up. It was so bad, so shallow and smug. It was like a parody of a 'feminist' podcast. Pathetic stuff. Give me Julie Bindel / Kathleen Stock/ Helen Joyce any day

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:41

Congratulations to anyone who finished the whole thing!

I got half way through and had to give up, although after some comments here I’ll try the rest of it as I want to hear what she said about Konstantin’s experiences.

One thing I like about Triggernometry is that they sound like typical English white guys but then when someone, like Deborah, pulls the identifiers card they can point out Francis is half Venezuelan and English isn’t his first language, and Konstantin is Russian. I don’t agree with everything they say but they are useful sometimes.

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NotmeMother · 02/05/2025 08:33

It was a shocker! I think Kathleen Stock's word MORON fits perfectly with this one.

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:32

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 15:48

I watched all 2 hours + of it today. <polishes medal>

I can't think of any salient point she made - there just weren't any. Many many many words, but no points of any interest or sense.

She's very keen on advocating for mens rights though - good on her. Is this why she is "guilty"?

The guilty part of her podcast was things like, “I’m a feminist but I don’t feel dressed unless I wear lipstick”.

Unfortunately she hasn’t figured out that the guiltiest feminist is actually a men’s rights activist.

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CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:28

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 01/05/2025 14:10

I used to love the guilty feminist. It became more nuanced, intersectional, but I was quite disappointed by her book. I unsubscribed when they put out a statement on socials about not tolerating hate when they had the trans woman from Edinburgh refuge or whatever it was. So I can't bring myself to listen to this!

That’s the point I stopped listening too. Having a man on to talk about his work in a women’s refuge tipped me over the edge!

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CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:26

Helleofabore · 01/05/2025 12:55

"But i think she wanted to show trig up as not being as smart as she is, not win them over. She wants them to be and think the opposite of her."

She came over as someone who is so scared of an argument outside her set parameters, and who is not really all that confident of their points. I thought maybe that she understood that she was trying to prop up points that have no scientific foundation, but then I realised when she started making references to other cultures that she has really just swallowed weak support and thinks that it is wonderfully robust.

I always find it weird when people use other cultures as an argument for changing sex.

Its so reductive and insulting to think any culture doesn’t know which people are likely to be the ones to give birth!

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CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:22

HobnobsChoice · 01/05/2025 12:22

I've started listening to it and it's infuriating. The orphan analogy doesn't hold up the way she thinks it does. Adoption gives a child adoptive parents but it doesn't pretend the child has no biological parents. It's a legal process and when it comes to medical issues an adopted child needs to know because if they are asked about family history of heart attacks or glaucoma then they have to say they don't know, not say that their (adoptive) parents have heart disease and glaucoma as that parental relationship and love doesn't include shared genetics.
Adoption also doesn't require other children and parents to call themselves "cis-parents" or "cis-daughter" and mothers by adoption aren't asking to attend antenatal classes or be on labour and delivery wards.

That's literally my initial thoughts on her argument. I can't even deal with her attempts to ignore Chinese, Islamic, Russian and indigenous cultures which don't fit into her model of gender spectrum.

None her arguments seem to actual arguments. Talking about the status of orphan being socially constructed in no way relates to the sex of an actual body. I can’t decide if she is deluded or just stupid.

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Solrock · 02/05/2025 08:03

GrandmaMazur · 01/05/2025 22:35

I was quite surprised when she talked about being part of a female comedians’ WhatsApp group where they shared details of dodgy male comedians. I wondered why she was included and only later found out she is actually a comedian. Is she funny? I can’t imagine it

About ten years ago Deborah Frances-White had her first show on Radio 4, Deborah Frances-White Rolls the Dice and it is genuinely very funny and quite poignant. You can listen to it here, if you want:

https://deborahfrances-white.com/writing/rolls-the-dice/

So, in answer to the question "Is she funny?" the answer is that she managed one very amusing radio series, which is more than most of us will achieve. But listening to it, her show suggests a few points:

  • As they say, everyone has one book in them. Deborah Frances-White Rolls the Dice was DFW's one book.
  • You realise that she has what we might euphemistically call some significant formative experiences, from being adopted, to ending up as a Jehovah's Witness. Some of her current politics are almost certainly influenced by these.
  • Whilst the show is funny, it does not give you the impression that she is a particularly deep thinker.

That last point is really hammered home by her appearance on Triggernometry. I had to stop listening after the appalling stupid claim that men only had short hair after they had to cut it off when fighting in the First World War. You can, for instance, go to the second floor of the National Portrait Gallery in London, and you will see what male hairstyles looked like before the war, and they certainly weren't long. Oscar Wilde, who is her example of a long-haired Victorian man, was always an outlier, and aesthete who was seen for his entire career as sitting outside normal societal norms, so a terrible example of what was accepted as normal during the nineteenth century.

I had to stop listening to the Triggernometry episode, for fear that the stupidity would prove to be contagious, but one point I noted from what I listened to was how DFW presents arguments which suggest that she sees things in aesthetic terms, and pushback to progressive policies as as aesthetic objection to the unfamiliar, hence her very strange bus-driver-in-a-clown-suit argument. And I feel that this is common approach for people who see themselves as progressive in the modern world. So, a writer in the Guardian, for instance, will suggest that the only meaningful difference between a Christian, a Muslim, and an atheist, is the aesthetics of how they practice their beliefs, rather than their belief systems representing, for instance, actual beliefs. Thus, being a woman becomes an aesthetic choice, rather than representing something with substantial and meaningful biological difference and potential oppression.

It's like the supposed liberals believe that everything only exists on the most superficial level (and I use the word "supposed" because they are not terribly liberal in any practical sense). Worthwhile to think about this whilst DFW meanders through absurd assertions about two-spirit people, or how many Victorian prisoners were orphans.

Rolls The Dice

Deborah's first Radio 4 series was transmitted 13 April - 4 May 2015. Episode One: Half a Can of Worms Episode Two: Cult Following Episode Three: Visa Issues Episode Four: Who's Your Daddy The second series was transmitted 7 - 14 October 2016. Epi...

https://deborahfrances-white.com/writing/rolls-the-dice/

LonginesPrime · 02/05/2025 00:15

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 23:23

Yes it was quite some time ago that I was subjected to her speaker event so the timeline adds up - I’m guessing around 6-8 ish years ago. Apologies if my post was confusing.

No worries at all; thanks for clarifying!

I’d hate to have missed out on years of insightful thought-leadership from DFW unnecessarily…

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 23:23

LonginesPrime · 01/05/2025 20:25

Is it only recently she’s embraced TWAW?

I seem to remember I tried to listen to her in about 2018 or 2019 and was put off by some nonsense - looking back, I guess it could have been some other nonsense, but I really thought it was because of gender woo and ‘just be kind’.

Happy to be corrected, though!

Yes it was quite some time ago that I was subjected to her speaker event so the timeline adds up - I’m guessing around 6-8 ish years ago. Apologies if my post was confusing.

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 23:03

Hours later and I am attempting to scare away the cringe by watching lots of Instagram videos by @horriblemeanbadwoman - who is the kind of Aussie feminist I can go for.

I'm not sure if @horriblemeanbadwoman is a comedian. but she is pretty funny along with her feminist analysis.

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 22:57

Perhaps she identifies as a comedian?

GrandmaMazur · 01/05/2025 22:35

I was quite surprised when she talked about being part of a female comedians’ WhatsApp group where they shared details of dodgy male comedians. I wondered why she was included and only later found out she is actually a comedian. Is she funny? I can’t imagine it

NotMeekNotObedient · 01/05/2025 20:37

I actually went along with some friends to her recent book launch, against my better judgement actually. The best bit was when she described the people who use abortion services as 'women' and then had to correct herself!

She had a nice dig at JKR at the end 🙄

Can't stand her any more. Imo the podcast died a death once Sophie Hagen left.

LonginesPrime · 01/05/2025 20:25

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 20:11

DFW was the headline speaker at a work event I attended many years ago. Ironically it was a women’s event (in an industry where the U.K. gender pay gap report makes for a very sobering read every year) but I recall she spent a LOT of the session patronising us about how we needed to be more inclusive and welcoming. Plus, word salad galore. She had just recently embraced the TWAW ideology. I’d love to know how much she got paid for churning out her waffle. Anyway we all got gifted a copy of her book which I chucked in a bin on the way home. I hadn’t heard her name in years and I can’t believe she still has a platform and followers, I’ve never met anyone less worthy of the title feminist.

Is it only recently she’s embraced TWAW?

I seem to remember I tried to listen to her in about 2018 or 2019 and was put off by some nonsense - looking back, I guess it could have been some other nonsense, but I really thought it was because of gender woo and ‘just be kind’.

Happy to be corrected, though!

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 20:11

DFW was the headline speaker at a work event I attended many years ago. Ironically it was a women’s event (in an industry where the U.K. gender pay gap report makes for a very sobering read every year) but I recall she spent a LOT of the session patronising us about how we needed to be more inclusive and welcoming. Plus, word salad galore. She had just recently embraced the TWAW ideology. I’d love to know how much she got paid for churning out her waffle. Anyway we all got gifted a copy of her book which I chucked in a bin on the way home. I hadn’t heard her name in years and I can’t believe she still has a platform and followers, I’ve never met anyone less worthy of the title feminist.

Lottapianos · 01/05/2025 19:51

'She keeps pushing with the psychoanalysis after that'

She did, and it was so vain and arrogant, and wasn't answering the question that was put to her. As far as I know, she is not a therapist. There is so much more to therapy than 'but how do you FEEL?' on a loop. I absolutely love watching Couples Therapy - the therapist, Orna, is incredibly skilled and nuanced and focused and endlessly compassionate. It's clear that DFW has only the most superficial understanding of what she's doing with those couples, and watching her clumsy manipulative attempts to recreate it with FF and KK was really unpleasant

OvaHere · 01/05/2025 19:42

PaleBlueMoonlight · 01/05/2025 19:01

To be fair, DWF is adopted. It appears that this may be why she feels she is "uniquely" able to come up with the argument.

Interesting. Perhaps she feels not believing that man = woman somehow invalidates adoptive parents? I don't think that at all, I find it insulting but each to their own I guess.

NoisyLemonDog · 01/05/2025 19:39

I'd never previously heard of DFW and thought that this was a toe-curlingly terrible car crash of an interview for her. @Triggerpod had the patience of saints.

I also found the psychoanalysis part particularly difficult to watch. For a nanosecond, DFW looked genuinely shocked when Francis described the trauma visited upon his family. She could have accepted the point and left it there but ploughed on regardless.

CassOle · 01/05/2025 19:38

I tried, I really tried, but, DFW is an insufferable bore and I had to turn it off as I may have died of 'cringe' if I had kept listening.

LonginesPrime · 01/05/2025 19:11

MyLostUsername · 01/05/2025 19:03

I've just got to the 'couple's therapy' part, and I agree it is horrifying. I particularly disliked when she tried to psychoanalise Konstantin because he did not enjoy being misrepresented 😱

She keeps pushing with the psychoanalysis after that - the whole thing about Francis’ traumatic family history in Venezuela which she pushed him to talk about and then said “ah, yes, that so interesting that that’s why you don’t like BLM” like she’d revealed some hidden truth was fucking painful to watch - it made her look like such an arsehole, but she just kept digging regardless.

MyLostUsername · 01/05/2025 19:03

Lottapianos · 01/05/2025 17:22

I've watched the whole thing so I claim my medal too! I literally had my head in my hands towards the end. The last 20 minutes -the 'Couples Therapy's bit - was seriously weird, along with arrogant, stupid, misguided, manipulative and highly inappropriate. It was really horrifying. I'm not always the biggest fan of KK but I think he deserved a sainthood for staying so calm and polite for nearly 2.5 hours

I need to watch some Helen Joyce interviews to bring myself back down to earth

I've just got to the 'couple's therapy' part, and I agree it is horrifying. I particularly disliked when she tried to psychoanalise Konstantin because he did not enjoy being misrepresented 😱

PaleBlueMoonlight · 01/05/2025 19:01

To be fair, DWF is adopted. It appears that this may be why she feels she is "uniquely" able to come up with the argument.