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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’

488 replies

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 08:45

Recently, a colleague at my company has declared that they are ‘agender’ and asexual and has asked to be addressed as ‘they’. As a result, my company decided to arrange a trans training session where some trans people came in to talk to us all about gender and terminology etc etc.

During this session, I was asked to describe my experience of living as a ‘cis woman’. I said that I didn’t have any experience of living as a cis woman, only as a woman so I couldn’t comment. I was pressed further and didn’t say much, only that the term ‘cis woman’ doesn’t align with my personal beliefs of what a woman is, so therefore declined to comment any further.

A few days later, I was pulled up on this by management who said that my behaviour was not acceptable and that I should be making an effort to be inclusive to everyone. I’m a bit baffled. Can I get others’ thoughts on this topic?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 01/05/2025 09:21

FOJN · 01/05/2025 08:52

You didn't make any remarks about "trans". You were asked questions about your own experience, I can't see what you did wrong. I'm sure the Forstater judgement puts your employers in the wrong here.

This.

I would be making that clear too that you consider their actions as bullying and harassment.

And trying to find another job.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/05/2025 09:20

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:01

Thanks everyone, it’s interesting to hear your views. This is in a private healthcare setting where I am a senior nurse.

You may just have to brave it out, and wait until the guidance is released. Don't apologise, and stay strong and focused on what you know to be true. In time, and with the guidance recieved you'll be able to monitor how/if the culture shifts.

Orangemintcream · 01/05/2025 09:20

I would be pointing out that I am happy to be inclusive but will not be describing myself in terms that go against my beliefs- beliefs which are also protected by law.

But only do this if you are willing to potentially have to take your employer to tribunal.

Herewegosummer · 01/05/2025 09:20

Write to them including everything that has happen so far.
Just be factual.

On X date this happened
On X date you verbally told me that ‘my behaviour was unacceptable’
Please could you clarify/detail/list the behaviour that was unacceptable?

OuterSpaceCadet · 01/05/2025 09:18

I might also point out that the trainer assumed your gender identity without asking you. And that nobody should be forced to "out" their personal beliefs or identity in a work environment.

Cvi · 01/05/2025 09:15

You’re being told off for disagreeing with the training. They just want everyone to be nice corporate drones who unquestioningly swallow everything they’re told, even when what they’re being told is both illegal and stupid. They obviously haven’t got the memo that that era is now over. We’ve had 15 years of people making up social norms and law as it suits them and pretending it’s the truth and bullying us if we disagree. They are no longer going to get away with it.

BarbieBrightSide · 01/05/2025 09:15

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:08

Interesting, maybe I will. I was basically told that my behaviour wasn’t acceptable and that I should be making an effort to use inclusive terminology, and that I was undermining the point of the training session. Also that as a nurse in a senior position, I should be setting an example for junior colleagues 🤷‍♀️

But you DID set an example for junior colleagues - just not the one your employer wanted you to!

SmoothOperatorCarlosSainz · 01/05/2025 09:13

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:08

Interesting, maybe I will. I was basically told that my behaviour wasn’t acceptable and that I should be making an effort to use inclusive terminology, and that I was undermining the point of the training session. Also that as a nurse in a senior position, I should be setting an example for junior colleagues 🤷‍♀️

This is wild to me. Be inclusive but how dare you not force the cis label on yourself to be inclusive. It's not inclusive if it's forcing you to use language that doesn't align with your beliefs

Grammarnut · 01/05/2025 09:13

Weird, isn't it? Anyone 'trans' has to have their personal beliefs validated, but that you don't agree with/accept the term 'cis' is transphobic. I see it as entirely reasonable to say I don't accept that term, just as, if I were transwoman, I could say I don't accept the pronouns 'she/her' as they do not align with my personal beliefs about myself. It doesn't work like that and is going to take a while for this nonsense to wash out of public life/work life etc - a decade, I suspect.

PriOn1 · 01/05/2025 09:12

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/05/2025 09:02

Apologies, I didn’t intend to come across as curt! I see your point, but it enrages me that this is how some women have to work, especially now the law has been clarified. It’s just madness!

No worries. I asked the questions without context.

It’s an almost impossible question to answer as it’s not clear how official the pulling up was. If it was a quiet word in passing, then asking for it to be put in writing might be an overreaction. Then again, it might not. I do think that ensuring that OP has clear evidence of what they are saying is important.

I’m not sure how relevant the SC ruling is here. This is obviously about formal and informal interactions in the workplace.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that OP had the right to say what she did. Her bosses are being unreasonable.

LushLemonTart · 01/05/2025 09:11

Had this happened recently? I'm amazed your employer hasn't seen the news? Bizarre.

SnackDealer25 · 01/05/2025 09:10

i would raise with them that by forcing you to accommodate someone’s batshit views, they are in turn discounting and invalidating yours which isnt very “inclusive”. I hate that companies are pandering to this crap

Greenartywitch · 01/05/2025 09:09

You have done nothing wrong.

There is no such a thing as a 'cis woman'.

Email HR and point out the recent high court judgement and the law in general and that you don't quite understand why your behaviour was deemed 'unacceptable'.

This nonsense has to stop.

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:08

Puttinginthemiles · 01/05/2025 08:54

I'd ask them to put their concerns in writing to me. That would be very interesting.

Interesting, maybe I will. I was basically told that my behaviour wasn’t acceptable and that I should be making an effort to use inclusive terminology, and that I was undermining the point of the training session. Also that as a nurse in a senior position, I should be setting an example for junior colleagues 🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
BangersAndGnash · 01/05/2025 09:08

Emphasise that you found the training helpful in working with trans clients, patients and colleagues.

And that you have no difficulty being inclusive as you have no anti Trans+ feelings or beliefs.

However your own identity as a woman is sex based and you use the definition ‘woman’ to describe yourself.

You are fully supportive of other’s identities and hope that respect within a team is 100% mutual.

Smile

<<through gritted teeth >>

Beowulfa · 01/05/2025 09:08

I would be tempted to respond with something like:

Dear Management Wanker,

Thank you for organising the training session. I've had a chance to consider my experience as a "cis woman" and can describe it as follows:

-the lifelong biological reality of being female, which involves menstruation, contraception, the physical impact of pregnancy and birth plus the career impact of maternity leave, and menopause
-casual everyday misogyny such as lack of adequate workplace toilet provision for females experiencing the above
-deliberate systematic misogyny such as the assumption that I consent to be labelled as "cis"
-societal expectations that I will prioritise kindness and inclusivity over my legal rights as a woman under the 2010 Equality Act

I'd be happy to organise a training session explaining recent legal clarification and what discrimination is and isn't in the workplace if needed.

Regards

Nominative · 01/05/2025 09:05

Point out that you simply answered a question honestly, and ask them to set out how they believe their approach aligns with the Forstater and Supreme Court judgments.

SirChenjins · 01/05/2025 09:05

You did nothing wrong OP - stand your ground. I agree with the pp who said you should ask for their response in writing - the Forstater ruling puts the law firmly on your side, and I don't imagine a private healthcare company will want to open themselves up to a legal case they will lose.

DisappearingGirl · 01/05/2025 09:04

Paraphrasing someone from a recent thread:

Some lived experiences are more valid than others, clearly.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/05/2025 09:03

Puttinginthemiles · 01/05/2025 08:54

I'd ask them to put their concerns in writing to me. That would be very interesting.

This is a great idea!

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/05/2025 09:02

PriOn1 · 01/05/2025 08:59

What you say is absolutely true, however that doesn’t mean OP isn’t about to experience some very unpleasant targetting at work, possibly led by the person who adopted a new special identity, closely backed by the management.

My questions were not intended to imply “OP should simply leave.” If she loves her job and wants to stay, what she chooses to do next might be influenced by the answers to the questions I asked, possibly alongside a third question, “How far are you willing to stick your neck out and how important is this subject to you?”

Apologies, I didn’t intend to come across as curt! I see your point, but it enrages me that this is how some women have to work, especially now the law has been clarified. It’s just madness!

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:01

Thanks everyone, it’s interesting to hear your views. This is in a private healthcare setting where I am a senior nurse.

OP posts:
PriOn1 · 01/05/2025 08:59

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/05/2025 08:51

That’s not the point is it? The recent SC ruling knocks this compelled speech nonsense out of the park. Respect works both ways, no woman has to acquiesce to being called ‘cis’.

What you say is absolutely true, however that doesn’t mean OP isn’t about to experience some very unpleasant targetting at work, possibly led by the person who adopted a new special identity, closely backed by the management.

My questions were not intended to imply “OP should simply leave.” If she loves her job and wants to stay, what she chooses to do next might be influenced by the answers to the questions I asked, possibly alongside a third question, “How far are you willing to stick your neck out and how important is this subject to you?”

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 01/05/2025 08:56

FOJN · 01/05/2025 08:52

You didn't make any remarks about "trans". You were asked questions about your own experience, I can't see what you did wrong. I'm sure the Forstater judgement puts your employers in the wrong here.

And absolutely this

Lovelyview · 01/05/2025 08:56

I have no advice op. Cis implies there are two subsets of the category woman - cis and trans. Unless you are a gender ideologist it is clear that this is not the case and obviously no-one should be forced to take part in other people's religion at work. However, your workplace sounds like it's not ready for this debate.

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