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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’

488 replies

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 08:45

Recently, a colleague at my company has declared that they are ‘agender’ and asexual and has asked to be addressed as ‘they’. As a result, my company decided to arrange a trans training session where some trans people came in to talk to us all about gender and terminology etc etc.

During this session, I was asked to describe my experience of living as a ‘cis woman’. I said that I didn’t have any experience of living as a cis woman, only as a woman so I couldn’t comment. I was pressed further and didn’t say much, only that the term ‘cis woman’ doesn’t align with my personal beliefs of what a woman is, so therefore declined to comment any further.

A few days later, I was pulled up on this by management who said that my behaviour was not acceptable and that I should be making an effort to be inclusive to everyone. I’m a bit baffled. Can I get others’ thoughts on this topic?

OP posts:
Vaxtable · 01/05/2025 10:23

I would be going back and saying that the comments they have made to you are bullying and harassment. You are entitled to your own view. I would be asking why you should have to accept being called a cis woman as you don’t believe you are and why do trans rights trump your right to call yourself what you want.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 01/05/2025 10:22

Christinapple · 01/05/2025 09:34

Cis or cisgender (look them up) just means someone who isn't trans. That's all. What they asked was correct and valid.

No it doesn't. It means someone who has a gender identity that aligns with their sex. In order to be cis, you must have a gender identity. Not everyone has one.

Personally, I think gender is a tool used by the patriarchy to oppress women mainly but also gay men and I refuse to buy in to it. My sex is female and I refute the patriarchy's efforts to force stereotypes on me.

aylis · 01/05/2025 10:22

And honestly this type of 'training' is bullshit.

Lovelysummerdays · 01/05/2025 10:22

I object to being called cis as well I don’t identify as having a gender identity so I’m just a woman. I do think your attitude would demonstrate something to colleagues and that is you are entitled to your own opinion on this matter abd thst is a powerful thing,

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 01/05/2025 10:22

deydododatdodontdeydo · 01/05/2025 10:17

Declaring your sexuality in the workplace is so cringe.
Who wants to know what others get up to in the bedroom? Yuck.
I can see revealing it to your close team would be of benefit, but not the wider workplace.
I have no idea what sexuality my coworkers are, I can make assumptions based on their partners, but they would only be guesses, and I don't want to know.
Attention seeking.

It’s the ‘look at ME, validate Me, listen to ME’ brigade, they are SO bloody boring!

rosemarble · 01/05/2025 10:21

JasmineAllen · 01/05/2025 10:19

You are setting an excellent example to junior colleagues OP.

Also the law is firmly on your side.

If I were you I'd thank them for their opinion, but make it clear it's up to you how you describe yourself and go on your merry way.

I was going to say this too. I'm old senior in my work place and vocal in our Women in Science campaigns/conferences.
I have the confidence to speak out where more junior colleagues may feel less able (an issue in itself obviously).

deydododatdodontdeydo · 01/05/2025 10:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/05/2025 10:20

to be fair this person isn’t getting up to anything in the bedroom…

Haha, fair point.

aylis · 01/05/2025 10:20

Your view is protected by law and your employer has potentially harassed you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/05/2025 10:20

deydododatdodontdeydo · 01/05/2025 10:17

Declaring your sexuality in the workplace is so cringe.
Who wants to know what others get up to in the bedroom? Yuck.
I can see revealing it to your close team would be of benefit, but not the wider workplace.
I have no idea what sexuality my coworkers are, I can make assumptions based on their partners, but they would only be guesses, and I don't want to know.
Attention seeking.

to be fair this person isn’t getting up to anything in the bedroom…

JasmineAllen · 01/05/2025 10:19

wherearethemarsbars · 01/05/2025 09:08

Interesting, maybe I will. I was basically told that my behaviour wasn’t acceptable and that I should be making an effort to use inclusive terminology, and that I was undermining the point of the training session. Also that as a nurse in a senior position, I should be setting an example for junior colleagues 🤷‍♀️

You are setting an excellent example to junior colleagues OP.

Also the law is firmly on your side.

If I were you I'd thank them for their opinion, but make it clear it's up to you how you describe yourself and go on your merry way.

Icanhearabee · 01/05/2025 10:18

I find the term ‘cis’ highly offensive. I identify as a woman. If my employer pulled me up on this I would feel that they were excluding me and how I ‘identify’. I.e as an adult human female. I suggest you take the same approach with your employer OP. I bet a lot of people in the room were in agreement with you.

ThriveAT · 01/05/2025 10:17

FunMustard · 01/05/2025 09:33

I would find it very interesting that it's ok for someone to self-identify as agender, asexual and ask for 'they' to be used, but it's not for you to self-identify as a woman.

Yes, this exactly.

Aizen · 01/05/2025 10:17

WHEN did this happen OP? If after the SC ruling I'd have to question the faculties of whoever had words with you. Totally unprofessional and stupid to raise this following a clear ruling like that. There are two sexes male and female and no subsets at all.

If the dressing down took place PRIOR to the SC ruling, then your response will be exactly the same now. The law hasn't changed one iota, merely clarified.

I cannot understand how any employer could still try and foment discord on this subject right now.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 01/05/2025 10:17

Declaring your sexuality in the workplace is so cringe.
Who wants to know what others get up to in the bedroom? Yuck.
I can see revealing it to your close team would be of benefit, but not the wider workplace.
I have no idea what sexuality my coworkers are, I can make assumptions based on their partners, but they would only be guesses, and I don't want to know.
Attention seeking.

ThriveAT · 01/05/2025 10:16

ScarlettSunset · 01/05/2025 08:49

I honestly don't think you did anything wrong by refusing to accept being referred to as a cis woman. I would find the term offensive myself.

Unfortunately though, I think it will take some time still before all of this type of mangling of the language ends.

Agreed. What about YOUR right to define yourself as YOU see fit?

lcakethereforeIam · 01/05/2025 10:16

MagpiePi · 01/05/2025 10:03

So he can have two 'I'm special' badges instead of one interesting personality?

I always misread agender as agenda.

My youngest briefly claimed to be agender, we both missed the spelling and for a few, heady, days I was Chairmum. I don't miss minuting all the conversations though.

I thought if you were 'agender' you were claiming the gender identity of not having a gender identity. They/themming anyway seems to be trying to have cake and eating it.

sashh · 01/05/2025 10:15

I respect and use my colleague's pronouns, I would appreciate it if I am respected equally by not calling me 'cis' or 'cis gender' as this is insulting to my own personal beliefs which have been tested in court as equivalent to a religious faith.

I expect this to be conveyed to any colleagues or outside training providers.

SerafinasGoose · 01/05/2025 10:13

The revelation of what your occupation is doesn't surprise me. I also work for a captured public sector institution. The Maya Forstater and SC judgements have the law on your side, so the suggestion to put any concerns in writing is an interesting one (and there is no way they will do that).

Organisational policy compels me to address people by their chosen name. I don't have any problem with that. Then there are pronouns. I avoid using sex/gendered pronouns at all for the most part: adopting a 'mangling language' approach which I try to see as a game. I do not address people by unwanted pronouns: that's against organisational policy and could see me disciplined. This way I don't offend anyone and am able hold to my own principles.

What they cannot expect me to do, ever, is to accept the labels they arbitrarily attach to me. I do not accept 'cis'. I will vocally state that I do not accept 'cis'. I do not announce 'my' own pronouns, nor do I wear rainbow lanyards or display embellished signatures. I don't respond to requests for 'my' pronouns in meetings. I maintain an awkward silence, or inform them this isn't a practice I follow.

I've always refused to attend any gender 'training' (aka brow beating), and when this has been included as part of a strategy day agenda I've ensured that for this portion I've been absent. I know that ship has already sailed for you but in the event that you have to stay in this job I wouldn't be attending any more.

The demand that we signal compliance in this way boils my blood. They cannot force you to declare your 'gender' or to dictate the terms in which you refer to yourself.

Respect/'inclusion' cuts both ways.

Coffeesnob11 · 01/05/2025 10:12

Did the person giving the training assume you were a woman or did they ask first? I would have said I don't identify as a cis woman and no elaborated any further. Respect and inclusivity works both ways.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/05/2025 10:11

SirChenjins · 01/05/2025 09:05

You did nothing wrong OP - stand your ground. I agree with the pp who said you should ask for their response in writing - the Forstater ruling puts the law firmly on your side, and I don't imagine a private healthcare company will want to open themselves up to a legal case they will lose.

Edited

Absolutely this.

ThePenguinIsDrunk · 01/05/2025 10:11

Christinapple · 01/05/2025 09:34

Cis or cisgender (look them up) just means someone who isn't trans. That's all. What they asked was correct and valid.

the problem with 'cis' is that it implies that someone is comfortable with the stereotypes associated with their sex. For example I am a woman but not feminine so I struggle with being called a cis-woman. I am also not a subset of woman, I am a woman, simple as that.

TeenToTwenties · 01/05/2025 10:11

What is the difference between being a woman who identifies as agender and being a woman who doesn't identify with a gender identity?

agender = believes in gender identity but is too special to have one (?)

loulouljh · 01/05/2025 10:10

They are being ridiculous. Not sure it would be a workplace for me.

FiveBarGate · 01/05/2025 10:08

GCAcademic · 01/05/2025 08:55

Ask them why you aren't allowed to define yourself as you wish and why they believe your identity isn't valid. Why aren't they, as an employer, inclusive to you, as someone whose rights on the basis of sex, in the Equality Act 2010, have just been clarified unambiguously in the Supreme Court?

And point them to the outcome of Maya Forstater's employment tribunal.

This.

Keep it unemotional and factual (and extremely polite) but put the questions back to them.

I'd phrase it as 'thank you for supporting the position that colleagues have agency over how they are defined.

In line with this, I am uncomfortable with the label cis. This is offensive to many people.

Can you explain more about how we manage these competing beliefs? The right to a gender critical view is enshrined in law through the Forstater ruling etc (provide links).

Point out that not wanting this label does not reflect a transphobic outlook.

Merrymouse · 01/05/2025 10:07

FlirtsWithRhinos · 01/05/2025 09:56

Oh Chris, you silly billy!

"Cis" doesn't mean "someone who isn't trans" at all!

"Cis" means "someone whose gender identity aligns with their gender assigned at birth"

So it can only apply to people who actually have a gender identity, which a great many people do not.

Gosh, this has been explained to you so many times now, it really is very odd you never seem to remember.

i will gently remind you again that many people, especially women who live with the social and physical consequences of how society treats people of their body sex regardless of how they may personally "identify", find being assumed to be "cigender" quite offensive. Please do better to be more considerate and inclusive.

Maybe this training course on agender people could help Chris?

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