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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans men using female spaces

133 replies

GoldenGate · 30/04/2025 16:20

Not seen a thread about this. Just saw a clip of the wonderful Hannah and Jake Graf on Lorraine. Usual oh we're so scared where to pee and its not fair what the SC ruling and EHRC have done. However what stood out was Jake stating she's not allowed to use mens loos (right) and also not allowed to use the female because she is a trans man. Is the second of those actually right? It would be terribly contradictory to biological sex. I get they could be excluded from eg. womens counselling sessions if their male appearance would be an issue, but surely not loos/changing rooms except the angle men could just pretend to be trans men.

OP posts:
TheOtherRaven · 30/04/2025 16:37

"This does create a difficulty for a person who has taken extreme steps to modify their body. It will become difficult for them to navigate sex-separated spaces. This is their dilemma. It should be explained to a person seeking to modify their body in this way that they will have to live with this practical difficulty, and that other people have rights. In most large public buildings where strangers mix, a unisex option is usually available and the practical dilemma does not arise."

This GI movement has been perfectly happy for women to have no options if they couldn't use a mixed sex space at all, or if they went to use it and found a man there who rendered the space unusable.

Third spaces will be created. Women weren't promised any kind of help on the way or a future in which they'd have their options catered for. They were just expected to go without and shut up or else. So my withers stay wholly unwrung.

spannasaurus · 30/04/2025 16:36

GoldenGate · 30/04/2025 16:34

I saw the part saying they "can" be excluded from spaces of their biological sex based on male appearance but hadn't thought this would apply to toilets etc. and how its policed is another discussion. I just see this being framed in a "you've given us no options now".

A vanishingly small number of transmen and virtually no transwomen truly pass.

I don't believe a service provider can exclude a trans identified female from female spaces unless an alternative is provided.

A service provider could also choose not to exclude trans identified females from females spaces

GoldenGate · 30/04/2025 16:34

I saw the part saying they "can" be excluded from spaces of their biological sex based on male appearance but hadn't thought this would apply to toilets etc. and how its policed is another discussion. I just see this being framed in a "you've given us no options now".

A vanishingly small number of transmen and virtually no transwomen truly pass.

OP posts:
TheOtherRaven · 30/04/2025 16:32

You might find the Sex Matters release on this helpful too:

Is the Supreme Court forcing a person who has taken extreme steps to look like a man to use the ladies’ toilets or saying that they have a right to?

The answer is no. Women who look convincingly like men and who go into the women’s toilets are likely to be just as alarming to women as actual men. They would have to explain themselves, providing personal information that they might not want to share (and that other people might not want to know).
Therefore it may not be practically possible for some trans-identifying women to use the ladies’ toilets.

The Supreme Court says that it is lawful to exclude them (at paragraph 221):
“Women living in the male gender could also be excluded [from a women’s service] under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided.”

But this does not mean they have a right to use the men’s toilets, from which they are excluded by rule. Men also have a right to privacy and dignity.
This does create a difficulty for a person who has taken extreme steps to modify their body. It will become difficult for them to navigate sex-separated spaces. This is their dilemma. It should be explained to a person seeking to modify their body in this way that they will have to live with this practical difficulty, and that other people have rights.

In most large public buildings where strangers mix, a unisex option is usually available and the practical dilemma does not arise.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-truth-about-toilets/

impossibletoday · 30/04/2025 16:31

That would not as a rule apply to toilets, but it could apply to rape crisis centres and domestic violence shelters.

girljulian · 30/04/2025 16:27

nocoolnamesleft · 30/04/2025 16:24

Trans men would be expected, under the ruling, to use the female toilets. Which makes sense, as they are female.

You obviously haven't read the whole judgement or the multiple threads there have been here about it!

"Moreover, women living in the male gender could also be excluded under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided. Their exclusion would amount to unlawful gender reassignment discrimination not sex discrimination absent this exception. "

nocoolnamesleft · 30/04/2025 16:24

Trans men would be expected, under the ruling, to use the female toilets. Which makes sense, as they are female.

girljulian · 30/04/2025 16:23

It is right. It's in the judgement.