Trans men using female spaces

But you've already said that you believe that a trans person is the sex that they identify as and that it is wrong to not support that. So how can you support a lesbian girl - who will be dealing with an avalanche of hate and bullying if she dares to say she does not want to consider a biologically male self identified lesbian?

Your single use changing rooms is a nice opt out for not making girls undress in front of boys in school but would do nothing to protect them from harassment and assault in hospital wards, prisons, denial of services unless they accept men present and those won't be your sweet teenagers but adult men with a very wide range of agendas, check the court cases. You might also want to look at posts by the amazing @Keeptoiletssafe who is a MNetter who works hard on this subject and knows a very great deal - she's shared a number of posts particularly about how girls with illness and medical needs are made less safe in single use spaces rather than cubicles, and how they are being sacrificed in their needs to the need to find a way not to have to say to a boy 'you cannot change with the girls because they have needs too, and we need to arrange a provision separately for you'. Which is indeed difficult, but the SC has now forced this conversation. And rightly so; the girls constantly disappear behind the needs of more valued groups.

Who is helping the girls celebrate and be proud of their boundaries and protections being affirmed in law right now as opposed to being given the message that it's shameful that women ever fought through court for them? How very unimportant they are next to boys and men.

@Seethlaw
This is a topic that I find problematic and I wish we will find a good solution which is safe for everyone. I don't want trans men excluded from female toilets, and on that I disagree with Sex Matters, I think for this particular aspect we will need guidance. There are places where excluding a trans men might be proportional (e.g. rape crisis centres, with alternative services/times/groups provided), others where it's a hard no (e.g. prisons). Toilets are difficult... A toilet at work where somebody is "out" is different from a toilet in a train station or pub...

The trans kids use single cubicle toilets and changing rooms, for everyone's peace of mind. (As I said above, I'd love it if all loos were like this, so bio sex wasn't an issue when using the loo!) Yes the girls told us that they didn't want the trans girl to use their toilets, they express boundaries.

Of course we support the lesbians as well! Why wouldn't we?

And I respect the need for some bio-woman only spaces, as do the trans people i know.

I think it probably annoys many women when people try to compel and control their speech in ways that enforces their vulnerability and submission to men and to the abuse that can follow. And annoys them when people are intolerant but think it's ok because being intolerant to women is all right.

Sex is a protected characteristic. Not being male or female. You are mistaken.

There are times when it is deemed appropriate by the equality act to discriminate against men in a way to have a positive effect to protect women and safeguard them.

However this doesn't mean that males don't have rights based on sex. They retain the right to privacy and dignity based on their sex.

This is one of the problems with all the rhetoric ATM. Activists are focusing on the safety thing and trying to say that that's not true, forgetting that privacy and dignity still remains a factor that should also be considered.

This men have the right to privacy and dignity away from women on the basis of their sex still.

Men can, and have, used the equality act to claim sex discrimination.

Now to get off the Internet!!
= too many awkward questions I can't answer

Sex is a protected chararacteristic so both men and women are covered by sex discrimination

Not at all - I'm supporting each child to be their best self. I definitely don't teach or use any regressive gender stereotyping! We take diversity and inclusion very seriously and have a diverse teaching body to support this. I'm sure that the kids feel safe to be their authentic selves, which is important!

It just annoys me when people deliberately misgender other people, and are intolerant. That's what for me started here in the first place 😆 Now to get off the Internet!!

Then with respect, how do you support and respect the girls to say no to sharing space for example showers or changing rooms with boys? Would they feel able to say such things to you? Would they dare have boundaries?

What about the girls who until the 16th, might have endured a forced strip search by a male police officer who felt entitled to handle her body regardless of her feelings because it validated his identity? What about the girls of yours who will grow up needing refuges and rape crises services, would you support them in their trauma to ask for a space of their own that is accessible to them, as for example Sarah Summers is having to do? What about the girls in your care who will grow up to be lesbians, would you support them to say they exclusively are sexually attracted to biological women and be proud of that identity?

If you had a transgirl using the girls changing room and one of the girls objected to changing with them what would be your response

Being a man is not a protected characteristic within the Equalites Act as being a woman is.

So why can’t Transmen use men’s toilets? They are not a threat to men.

So you are actively supportive of teaching regressive gender stereotypes which reinforce discrimination on the basis of sex.

As a teacher.

Goodie.

"It's okay to discriminate based on appearance because they "chose" to look like this ?"

As a trans man who barely passes: yes, absolutely. The comfort, and sometimes the mental health of several women, trump mine. Especially in cases like refuges, rape centers, therapy sessions, and so on. We trans men make the choice to make ourselves look as much as possible exactly like the predators of untold numbers of women; it's on us to deal with the consequences. Many of us understand that, and wouldn't want to so much as take the risk of hurting a woman by showing up in places where we could do damage. We were, after all, socialised as women and taught to have empathy for others, and that not everything is about us.

I do. I've worked with three non binary kids and two trans kids. Both the trans kids transitioned (socially) to living as their preferred gender during sixth form. One of the three non binary kids transitioned after A Levels, the other two are happily nonbinary, one is gay, one is not. My job is look after ALL the kids in my care, and I take that seriously. Everyone is equal, and everyone deserves respect.

Here's the thing.

If you can't see sex, you can tell if someone is being discriminated against.

There are situations where this is really very relevant. Say for example a transwoman is being treated more favourably in the workplace and is paid better.

So yes I do think it's important to be able to see sex.

No, it's about capacity to have equal concern for women and girls. Equality of care and compassion.

And it's the law. Arguments like yours are precisely why women and girls must have rock solid cast iron protections in law: because we live in a patriarchy, which does not value women, and currently the modern sexism is that 'nice' girls would surrender their rights and live their lives enabling male people to their own detriment.

You know multiple trans and non binary children? That’s odd in itself considering 1.7% of the whole population identify this way. Interesting again that we are back on TWAW when the subject of the thread was about trans
men.

How about Karen White? Katie Dolotowski? Isla Bryson?

The TiM neighbour of mine who walks in the middle of the road screaming misogynist abuse and threats at any woman who tries to get her car around him, and is obviously unstable?

You're welcome to perceive however you like. I suspect there is a very large population beyond your children, and it is not sadly all and only about them. And even so, I wish you had half the passion for the rights and identities and futures of the girls you care for as you do for this group.

@Issorryreallythehardestword

Do you really believe the person pictured below is a lesbian woman?

Why the concern? Because i think it's important to be an ally to people who need it. I'm astonished at the level of anti trans feeling on these pages, and i get the feeling that a lot of people don't think that being trans is 'real'. It is real. No one is trans so they can do crime. Some MEN might pretend to be trans, maybe (although I've personally seen no evidence of this). But transmen are made to suffer as a result.

You are head of year 13 in a school and you think being male is a "worldview".

That explains a lot @Issorryreallythehardestword

Transwomen are men both in fact and in law (as confirmed by the supreme court)

I'm a teacher - the head of year 13 in a school. I have worked with multiple young people who have come out as either non binary or trans. They're is no doubt in my mind that transwomen are women, and vice versa. If you think it's made up, I think you don't know anyone who is trans or non binary. That's on you, but if you're relying on the media for your information, it isn't helping to to understand.

TW can not want to be on male wards all they like. They’re male. It’s where they belong. The only criteria to being a TW is to be male. No female can be a TW.

How was it safe and fair for women to have men in their spaces? What did you do about that?

Do you see why women wouldn't want men on their hospital wards? Especially the ones who were raped and assaulted?

Why all this concern for only the men? And how is this women's problem, what answer do you want to hear here?