Trans men using female spaces

If they are female they should be allowed in a female single sex space regardless of how they look.

I am conflicted. My base assumption/belief is that women use the women's. As in biological women.

This obviously includes trans men (women who think they're men). However: if they have tried to disguise them so well that they get challenged? Meh. Tough. They have gone this to themselves. And they should also stay out of the men's.

Actions have consequences

You may not believe it but it looks as if it is the case.

It is a difficult issue. I think most trans men (TIF) are still quite obviously women due to the small size, hips and voice. Maybe the answer is for them to use women’s toilets and services but then be aware that they might be asked to leave if they do actually look like men.

I suppose one issue is lots of them seem to be self deluded enough to think they pass as men and so will self exclude.

I have met two TIFs through work, both who seem to think they look like men, but who are very obviously women. I wouldn’t look twice at them in the women’s toilets, except to think perhaps they might have PCOS like me due to the neck beards.

Maybe it’s different if they are older and have been on testosterone longer, someone like Buck Angel would be less obviously female.

I’m sure someone else later in the thread has corrected this, but I couldn’t pass by without observing what a profound misunderstanding of the Equality Act this is

If they look convincing then they can just use the mens.
There was a woman who was presumably trans when I was at a cafe the other day, despite an unusually shaped thick beard, so presumably hormone treatment or stuck on, she was still very clearly female before she even spoke.
I'd assume the ruling is to avoid men pretending they are females who identify as males to get access. In reality it's unlikely a female is going to pass as a male once an adult.

With an open category (men’s plus others) you would need different requirements eg sanitary bins versus bigger ‘bins for boys’ for men. To have both in would need a bigger toilet cubicle. No urinals as men wouldn’t feel comfy and flashing problems if girls and women there. Also the cubicle should have gaps for health and safety so I don’t think that’s fair on men who may not be able to ‘go’ if there’s a woman in the next cubicle.

Then there’s the sinks. It’s bad enough trying to get men washing their hands at all. I would bet (though I haven’t seen studies on it) that women spend longer at the sinks.

I don’t like mixed sex toilets as I have done research and have some stats for assaults in public and school toilets. Taking away the enclosed private design would make it safer but is the only known design for mixed sex.

Privacy is also a problem with medical emergencies of course.
There are tens of thousands of people with invisible disabilities who need the reasonable adjustment of single sex design because it’s the design with door gaps. These people have been forgotten in the trend of making public toilets mixed sex and enclosed. And of course any of us could feel ill, head to the toilet and collapse. It’s why the doors can be altered on modern designs to open outwards so rescuers can get a body out.

Men of a certain age are more likely to have a stroke or heart attack (than a young woman) so it’s proper that they have door gaps for safety too.

I think safety should come first.

How does an inner sense 'align' with biological sex? Can you describe this inner sense?

Nope, I had to go back to work! That's right, a teacher working evenings :)

They can't change sex, but sometimes people are not cisgendered. So their gender (their sense of male-ness or female-ness) does not align with their biological sex. No one is asserting that biological sex can change; it can't! But gender is psychological, and some people aren't cisgendered. I don't know why that is, but it is so.

Before the ruling, how did you know whether they were a trans woman or an opportunistic non-trans man invading women's safe space? Did you ask to look?

Stop using us trans men as a gotcha.

Thanks. Yes, that’s the extension of my “not having thought through fully” I guess.

If they're six foot tall and bearded they're a transman, didn't you get the memo?

Yes - they are female , you can’t change from male to female or female to male. I feel sorry for the young and vulnerable who have been manipulated by this ideology but my views are very clear cut

Exemptions to the EA 2010 can be made on the basis of there being a proportionate response to achieve a legitimate outcome.

These exemptions might all need to be argued in court at some point (if someone complains of discrimination) but any argument can be made as to what constitutes either of those two conditions (proportionality and legitimacy).

It is likely that there are more legitimate reasons to protect women than men, for example safety doesn't really apply to men, but there isn't good case law on what the floor for proportionality is.

For example, chess is segregated by sex not for safety but to encourage increased participation from women. This seems like quite a low bar, so presumably there are lots of other similar arguments to be made for either sex.

Actually, I have been faced by a bearded figure in the women's toilet. I panicked for about the nanosecond it took to twig that they were obviously biologically female.

Why would you be incredulous enough to believe that people can change sex just because they say so?

Being a teacher gives you no insight into the truth of these kids' statements.

Yes the girls told us that they didn't want the trans girl to use their toilets, they express boundaries.

Good. My child's school made it clear that they would consider any girl who objected to be transphobic; and then, having made this clear, confidently asserted that no girls objected.

I'm still angry, even after years.

Toilets still probably fall under men wanting dignity and privacy - keep in mind religious minorities who are not allowed to mix in this way with the opposite sex being particularly relevant here.

Open sport doesn't have this same consideration to make.

Of course the men's toilets are safe for men. Little boys go in there, it's not some zoo full of snarling beasts.

The problem is with men who would transgress the social contract and attempt to use women's sex-segregated facilities.

How will you tell if they are a trans man or an opportunist born as a man invading women’s safe space? Will you ask to look? 🤷🏻‍♀️

I agree on sex (rather than womanhood) being the relevant protected characteristic but I wonder whether there is any mileage - at least in relation to toilets and possibly hospital wards - to think of a need for (a) female toilets (for reasons of safety, dignity, privacy and (b) “open category” toilets for those who, by dint of their sex (male people) or hormonal treatment (transmen) don't have the same need for separate toilets.

I’ve not thought this fully through but just trying to think about the parallel with sport (open category and women’s category, with the latter only being for female people who aren’t taking performance enhancing drugs).

Are these cubicles fully enclosed? How would you like them to look? I am interested in everyone’s point of view, but I haven’t found a better solution for public or school toilets than single sex toilet cubicles with door gaps.

I agree that it's a complicated matter, and that it leads to problematic situations. I mean, I'm not in the UK, and we don't typically have unisex toilets here. So if I don't want to risk scaring a woman who wouldn't clock me as a trans man, nor infringe on the dignity of a man who doesn't want a woman in his male space for whatever reason, nor use the disabled toilet because I'm not disabled... I'm stuck. But I'm aware that I'm stuck because of my choices, not because other people are transphobic.

This. Pure common sense.

I suspect this is why the judgment has said 'can' and not 'must'.