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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Highly intelligent" but...

68 replies

bonfireoftheverities · 28/04/2025 12:39

It's quite common to read about someone who is said to be very intelligent yet still fell for genderwoo. How do you reconcile smart people saying and believing such stupid things?

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 28/04/2025 15:59

This is a useful book:

https://davidrobson.me/books/the-intelligence-trap/

I think we're all susceptible to falling for fallacies. The only solution is to try and test your thinking regularly. The trouble with blind spots is that you don't know you have them. It's the unknown unknowns that can bite you in the bum.

Plus, echo chambers. Emotion based reasoning. Self righteousness.

The Intelligence Trap – David Robson

https://davidrobson.me/books/the-intelligence-trap

commonsense61 · 28/04/2025 15:51

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WarriorN · 28/04/2025 15:45

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wow. I wonder how common this is?

Beowulfa · 28/04/2025 15:44

Also, do not underestimate the scientific illiteracy and general innumeracy in this country. We've only had one PM with a science degree (Thatcher).

colta · 28/04/2025 15:42

Because their need to seem cool or compassionate outweighs their intelligence? I also think that many people can be intelligent enough to hold professional jobs but don't actually think that critically and just take their cues from others in a rather unthinking way.

That is why we see so much belligerence in response to the SC ruling because these people don't want to be made to think nor can they accept that they might have been wrong because that call into question everything and exposes that they live life on a kind of intellectual autopilot, outsourcing their opinions, taste and so on.

I can totally see how to some people the whole "be kind" and "right side of history" rhetoric of the trans lobby looked like an easy win to these people, but I doubt any of them gave it any real thought. Look at all the companies that blindly went along with Stonewall.

Sadly there are many superficially functional but ultimately unthinking people in society, and many are just self interested cowards who bend whichever way the wind blows. That includes doctors, politicians, broadcasters, police, teachers and so on. Scary if you think about it.

Beowulfa · 28/04/2025 15:42

CrossPurposes · 28/04/2025 12:52

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, doctor and creator of Sherlock Holmes thought that photographs of drawings of fairies were real. I have no idea how he could have thought so.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-55187973

Sorry for having an answer but intelligent people aren't intelligent about everything.

Conan Doyle had a son, brother and two nephews killed in the Boer and Great War. He got into spiritualism as he was desperate to believe he could make contact with the deceased; very sad. A lot of people were never quite the same after WWI particularly.

HarpSnail · 28/04/2025 15:30

I don’t know why academics are coming in for criticism. They’re some of the people standing out against it with their jobs on the line.

I think certainly in Ireland it was many of the people involved in campaigning for the legalisation of abortion and gay marriage who just got behind it as the next liberal cause. Without realising, somehow, that it was eroding women’s rights and legal existence.

Happyinarcon · 28/04/2025 15:20

I have 2 smart friends who support it, one Is a fairly angry woman with an axe to grind who thinks supporting trans issues is somehow fighting against a conservative society. The second is open minded and genuinely thinks it’s a some kind of previously suppressed sexuality.

WithSilverBells · 28/04/2025 15:18

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2025 15:07

I know someone who got a first in a science degree - but didn't know that penguin was a bird.

That was an eye opener.

To be fair, I had to think for a moment when it came up in conversation once😂

commonsense61 · 28/04/2025 15:12

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2025 15:07

I know someone who got a first in a science degree - but didn't know that penguin was a bird.

That was an eye opener.

Greyskybluesky · 28/04/2025 15:03

"Smart is not necessarily multi dimensional. I work with academics who can do incredible things in their chosen domain, yet sometimes I do seriously worry about how they get home alone on public transport."

That did make me laugh @AlphabetBird I recognise this only too well!

MarkingBad · 28/04/2025 15:01

AlphabetBird · 28/04/2025 12:43

Smart is not necessarily multi dimensional. I work with academics who can do incredible things in their chosen domain, yet sometimes I do seriously worry about how they get home alone on public transport.

I also learned very early to treat all views outside of their expert domains as ‘enthusiastic amateur’ at best and weigh them carefully before agreeing.

I agree.

I've worked with some PhDs and other academics who couldn't find their own arse with two caravan mirrors and an instruction manual but anything about their topic and they are in their element.

One was yelling for some time about having lost a pencil on his desk. I went to his desk after he stormed off in a massive snit and it was right there, centre of the desk in bright red. I placed a white sheet of printer paper underneath the pencil for when he came back, he thanked me for giving him my pencil as someone pointed out to him I'd approached his desk after he left (I hadn't it was definitely his I don't chew wood as a habit).

OP I guess we can all be susceptible to believing stuff that we might ordinarily dismiss if it is presented the right way or as a slow creep. I must admit when someone told me the subject I studied and worked in was a belief and not a science I laughed until I realise they absolutely bought it. Also the pressure to conform can be enormous, which is why so many people have stayed silent on this.

DragonRunor · 28/04/2025 14:58

I’ve yet to see any of these ‘intelligent’ people come and make a robust argument here.

I don’t disagree with the premise. It’s interesting though how the number of trans-supporting doctors and lawyers, as well as academics, speaks volumes about the lack of academic curiosity and courage among these people. I’d love to understand why, but of course you’re not allowed to ask. Is it the power of DEI training?

NorthernBogbean · 28/04/2025 14:58

If you were to trace lines of argument from where 1980s middle-class activism (on racism, sexism et al) met 'Cultural Theory' in UK universities you'd see how ideas about Queer Theory, 'Subjectivity', postmodern possibilities, rhizomes, laughing medusas and so on, followed a trail of internal logic whereby existing boundaries and boring old categories could be kicked out because they're as uncool as your Mum and Dad. I was part of this minority-interest fun, but still can't quite see how it spread so widely outside certain subject-areas although it does coincide with the great uptake of students post 1992.

But, it's the spread and take-up of these ideas, sometimes half-understood, with all the original debates removed, in application to the real world via vocational or would-be vocational subjects, then to become embedded in institutions and management structures which has at least partly led to of the current situation.

Academics have been gently simmering in this for so many decades and generations that an unspoken agreement on categories, oppressions, language, 'progressiveness' and so on has simply become the new common-sense. It's become the orthodoxy in how to get on at work, how to get grant funding and how not to get into trouble. It's become belief. Student-customers don't really question it, having been taught it by new generations of academics who can't remember the old debates or contexts.

Universities don't prioritise critical thinking or debate in any area where they might be socially and financially punished for wrongthink but reassure themselves that all the ideas about categories and oppressions they buy into are just settled facts among their own class, so no questioning is needed. In my experience, academics don't have any special powers to get them out of stupid thinking and its consequences.

Oldfashioneddinosaur · 28/04/2025 14:55

Game0fCrones · 28/04/2025 12:45

In my experience, they tend to be very kind, liberal people, from comfortable backgrounds, who work in institutions (NHS, Universities, Church of England etc..) so they are surrounded by likeminded people and are to a certain degree, protected from the harsh realities of daily life outside those institutions.

This. I think it's when people have been caught up in the "this is kind because everyone I'm around says it's kind" it before they have actually thought it through logically. And then once you and your tribe are so vocal about how this is the way to be good/kind/progressive, and the other way is evil/bigoted, then how the hell does anyone get out?

Nb I know that people do, because I'm one of them, but I think for people whose identity is more tied up in people liking them then it's very difficult.

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2025 14:54

DameMaud · 28/04/2025 14:24

Found it:

https://www.gurwinder.blog/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs

"What this means is that, while unintelligent people are more easily misled by other people, intelligent people are more easily misled by themselves. They’re better at convincing themselves of things they want to believe rather than things that are actually true. This is why intelligent people tend to have stronger ideological biases; being better at reasoning makes them better at rationalizing"

This is interesting.

I was going to suggest that there's a certain arrogance that comes with intelligence. If you know a lot and are usually right, you aren't used to being wrong and more importantly admitting you are wrong. That's something 'stupid people' do.

That point fits with the above about rationalising.

It's interesting seeing the LDs twisting things to try and rationalise their position and make out that women are still wrong rather than hold their hands up and go. 'Yeah fair enough, we neglected to consider women'.

Their arguments are utter bobbins but I think there's an element of almost trying to intimidate others with their reasoning so they shut up and the LDs get the last word in.

I have to say this insistence of 'im right and I must get my way' really was something that has jarred with me with regards to Brexit - they didn't know when was the appropriate time to back down and instead engaged in unpragmatic brinkmanship to the detriment of absolutely everyone. Because they HAD to be right and HAD to win.

ManyATrueWord · 28/04/2025 14:52

Lots of "clever" people are completely clueless about their own biases and flawed assumptions. Simply put, they are not that clever.

Fully agree that lots of men don't see women as fully human. Think about how people of colour were talked about two hundred years ago. Or children. Or the working classes.

Grammarnut · 28/04/2025 14:48

LonginesPrime · 28/04/2025 12:55

Also, one of the strongest arguments from trans activists is that only trans people understand this issue and that if you don’t understand what they mean when they talk about gender woo, it’s because you’re not trans, so you can either be an ally or an oppressor.

The whole movement is build around believing people when they say they’re the opposite sex even if your eyes (and logic) deceive you, so the fact their gender claims are unfalsifiable is built into the ideology as a core tenet.

Remind you of anything? Sure does! Mummy, the emperor isn't wearing any clothes. But we already know this.

Preposterious · 28/04/2025 14:46

Intelligence is not the same as common sense. There needs to be an ability to apply knowledge, reason and judge the outcome regarding situations.
Those who seemingly lack intelligence in the form of academic knowledge, can still have good judgment and assess situations practically.

Hence the comparison of certain viewpoints being likened to those who seem to have less intelligence (we’re all right wing bigots or Trump supporters if we don’t hold certain views)

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 28/04/2025 14:35

I think that intelligence is about book learning, and what an intelligent person knows is whatever was in the book they learnt.

DameMaud · 28/04/2025 14:24

Found it:

https://www.gurwinder.blog/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs

"What this means is that, while unintelligent people are more easily misled by other people, intelligent people are more easily misled by themselves. They’re better at convincing themselves of things they want to believe rather than things that are actually true. This is why intelligent people tend to have stronger ideological biases; being better at reasoning makes them better at rationalizing"

Why Smart People Believe Stupid Things

Intelligence is not rationality

https://www.gurwinder.blog/p/why-smart-people-hold-stupid-beliefs

DameMaud · 28/04/2025 14:19

Gurwinder Bhogal is good on this question.

Somewhere I have saved his essay on it.
But for now, here is an interesting discussion with him on the podcast Beyond Gender:

open.spotify.com/episode/47fyFKGNqFhj5ffhuJiYtz?si=-3VfDc5kQweEEmOpeqC2oQb

CrossPurposes · 28/04/2025 13:17

LonginesPrime · 28/04/2025 13:02

I’m not sure he did actually believe the girls at all, as I understand that he had a photographer friend doctor (or ‘enhance’) the photos (I think Leeds uni did some research on it?), and he had beef with the sceptics and was desperate to prove them wrong.

The example of Arthur Conan Doyle is still incredibly relevant to this even if he didn’t genuinely believe the girls though, as it shows the lengths someone will go to to prove a point beyond all reason for petty or egotistical reasons. Which I’m sure is relevant in many cases of gender woo thought too.

You are right. My interpretation was a little simple. However, one look should have told him instantly they were fake. There is an interesting remark at the end of the BBC piece.

Speaking to the BBC in 1983, Frances Griffiths said: "I never even thought of it being a fraud. It was just Elsie and I having a bit of fun.

"I can't understand to this day why people were taken in. They wanted to be taken in.

"People often say to me 'Don't you feel ashamed that you have made all these poor people look like fools? They believed in you.' But I do not, because they wanted to believe."

MarieDeGournay · 28/04/2025 13:12

Intelligence, knowledge, understanding, wisdom, insight are different things and it's possible to have one or two of them in spades and be lacking in the others.

I'm not in the academic world any more, but I remember that it took great courage to say 'I don't understand that', it was safer to frown slightly and nod a lot instead of challenging the meaning of something that was complex to the point of obscurity.
The obscurity was taken as proof of its academic validity, so to complain about it was to place yourself outside the magic circle.

If you were, like me, someone who arrived at an academic job via a non-traditional route, and from a family background where nobody else had even been to uni, let alone taught in one, the pressure to conform was huge, so frowning and nodding slightly seemed like the best way to blend in...

I didn't blend in, I didn't get promoted, I wasn't one of the research stars, but I didn't mind because I actually liked interacting with students, unlike so many high-flying colleagues🙄