Interim guidance from EHRC is out, thread 2

Yes that’s what I believe. The EHRC and HSE may tweak it - I was on to them last year with some suggestions.

Apologies for muddying the waters. You are of course correct. Me not.

I assume that places can stick with what they had pre. 2024 as long as they have not rebuilt or extensively remodelled. Once they do they need to take account of these new regulations.

Please please do! It is such an important point and it is missing from all the debates that I have seen/heard outside Mumsnet.

It’s a bit out of my comfort zone but I am happy to go on the radio to point out single sex toilets with gaps designed in them is the safest.

Thanks. It's given as 1 toilet if 5 staff or less. (Most small places of work like shops, small offices or cafes). And that (employee) facility needs to be single sex if more than two employees? www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

Thanks @Bunpea I'll pass details onto him. He's quietly converted his whole dept (well, most of them) and they quite literally assign gender at birth... Obv, they don't, they record it accurately 😂

The other thread is also collecting copies of letters, notes etc that Trusts are sending out to staff (in case your OH has received anything similar) since the SC judgement. They have set up a repository where you can post it anonymously. It’s interesting how they vary.

Please thank your other half! Hopefully that task will become much easier now!

@LonginesPrime thanks for this, I'll check it out. My other half is a consultant for NHS Lothian and is well versed in trying to fight the erasure of women from the inside.

Thanks for sharing,@RoseRedorDead!

There’s a working group thread for volunteers auditing the NHS policies for each trust, and while I think they’ve done Lothian, it’s definitely worth having a look.

It really is shocking when you look behind the scenes at what these public orgs are actually doing, especially when it comes to the NHS and prisons, who are charged with safeguarding some of the most vulnerable women in society.

Hi, delurking to ask- I don't know if anyone has posted this already, but I have found a FOI on NHS Lothian trans inclusivity policy. I can't figure out how to share it though, as it's a pdf. Here's the link if anyone interested. It's quite a startling read on how much thece misinterpreted the EA 2010. From 2024
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=org.nhslothian.scot/foi/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2024/05/8616.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiOj4ibxvqMAxV5QkEAHcKEAQwQFnoECCYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0fYf5j4Q7OtEloazhofXya

I agree, but I think an even simpler translation of transwomen is “biological men”, as the SC and EHRC say.

This plain language sidesteps any accusations of disparagement arising from the word ‘claim’ and arguments about abusers always finding a way, etc, and it cuts straight to the heart of the issue - that a biological male’s motivation for entering a woman-only space is completely irrelevant to whether he should be allowed to do so.

Interesting and I think this is another example backing up Barracker's 'Pronouns are Rohypnol' theorem.

It helps to mentally translate "transwomen" into "men who claim to be women" for clarity of thought and understanding!

I choose that translation carefully as it encompasses all those who genuinely believe that they are in fact 'women' - whatever that means under their own personal belief system (to which they are entitled, however vehemently I disagree) - as well as those with less ingenuous motivations. And under any sort of self-ID system and/or the definition of the protected characteristic "gender reassignment" under the EA2010, we are absolutely talking about both when we talk about "transwomen".

I was talking to DH about this situation earlier and trying to explain it to him. He 'gets' the GC viewpoint but he hasn’t got the visceral understanding that (many) women possess.

We go to a coffee-shop sometimes that has 3 toilets side-by-side. They used to be: female, male, disabled. It all worked fine. Afaik nobody had any problem with it.
Then at some point a couple of years ago they silently became all ‘unisex'. Ever since, the loo that used to be the women's - always pretty neat, tidy and dry - became messy, piss-covered and nasty. All 3 cubicles are like that now.

DH was saying re this coffee-shop and the judgment, 'oh well, they’re unisex so it’ll be fine and it won’t make a difference.' He needed me to point out that actually, no - the separate women's loo used to be a much nicer environment and I’d like to have it reinstated, please.

Just seen this posted elsewhere, its advice for trans identified individuals on using single sex faculties, basically just encouraging them to ignore the law and cause trouble for women and businesses. Prepared by an Inclusive Culture Expert 😂

Toilets - A pocket guide for Service Providers and for Trans People

Another issue with Stephen Kinnock is that despite being an MP for a constituency in Wales, he doesn’t live here, he doesn’t even live in the UK. He’s married to the ex-president of Denmark and that’s where his family home is.

It must be v difficult for him to keep on top of the UK’s public mood and sentiment.

If he lived here and was committed to staying, I’d also feel more reassured about his interest in finding long term solutions to the UK’s social political challenges. As it is, he can just hop off back to Denmark.

I have been thinking that about a lot of commentators. There seem to be plenty men happy to take spots on news shows and giving their views. Don't they realise how ridiculous they are?

Maybe I should start touting myself as a pundit with lived experience of identifying with prostate cancer? Or male pattern baldness? I would be regarded as a complete idiot - but apparently a man can espouse in that way on female matters. FFS what is wrong with these people?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11876703/amp/Mum-Neil-Kinnocks-granddaughter-reveals-fears-trans-son-gets-double-mastectomy.html

My thoughts too.

Then he’s completely compromised, and should have the decency to understand this and step aside.

Stephen Kinnock is completely captured as he has an adult daughter who thinks she is a man & has had a double mastectomy.

There is a lot of misinformation on all sides.

I thought it was a pretty bad show on Radio 4 Today this morning for a government minister to say they would need to "think carefully" and "not rush" and "wait for EHRC guidance". They didn't bother with any careful thinking when they removed all of the women's rights did they? It is egregious!

It will take a few years for some cases to come through the Tribunals and courts with both sides claiming hostile environments and discrimination. And then the cases will be settled in favour of the women/single sex spaces. Financial penalties will be levied and it will become less attractive a hobby. We can hope

It’s also potentially indirect discrimination against women, as many will self-exclude (or be uncomfortable, etc) if it’s the type of service that needs to be single-sex but admits transwomen.

The lockable bit is always questionable as is the reasonable adjustment for workers.

1. Doors can’t truly be lockable as building regs in Doc T say they should be able to be opened outwards in an emergency when someone has collapsed in them and a body is stopping entry. How easy that is (hinge reversal/lifting off/coin) may be abused?
2. A reasonable adjustment for someone with a collapse disorder maybe a door gap so that they can be seen if they collapse.

It seems the wrong if we have 1 but not 2.
We know people collapse in toilets enough times we put a rule in for building regs, but we don’t seem to be concerned about seeing they have collapsed and getting them out in time.