Thank you, you wonderful ladies. I spoke out today for the first time.

I am concerned that newcomers to this site may feel vindicated in their view that Mumsnet is transphobic.

In which case, they would be wrong, and need to see more of the world.
Mumsnet is an amazing forum where everything can be discussed, including subtle, nuanced topics. Posters challenging each others' views is what makes for an effective debate. Arguing against your own opinion (to see if you change your mind) is also healthy.

I think there's a difference finding people who are mimicking something other than what they biologically are odd and unsettling and saying trans people are odd and unsettling.

In regards to race, I'm also from a small town in Scotland and there's very few black people so yes I would notice a black man in the Post Office in a way I wouldn't notice if I was in the middle of Princes Street. I certainly would not find it odd and unsettling It would just unconsciously register.

I think if we're all honest we can tell a man from a woman 99.9% of the time and I stand by my point that being told that a clearly male person is female can be quite jarring and confusing. I don't think that's unkind or discriminatory.

I regards to whether newcomer's think this site is transphobic or not - it seems that even stating biological reality and making the case for womens rights is transphobic so I personally don't care very much about that.

Me too. I found the judgment exceptionally clear even though IANAL. It is a masterpiece of exposition which is only to be expected from the finest legal minds in the country sitting in the Supreme Court. It also shows the value of an independent judiciary untainted by political bias.

I for my part have just cancelled my LibDem membership and contributed to Natalie Bird's crowd funder. She was wearing a t shirt saying Woman, adult human female and was banned from membership. The transwomen and their transrights t shirts were never banned. She won her case without it going to court but her payment was restricted so she is appealing against that.

Ed Davey came out with of course we support the Supreme Court ruling but we need it to be explained how it applies in practice. No chum, it doesn't. I read the whole 87 pages and although not a lawyer it seemed clear to me.

I had comebacks for them all, largely based on information I’ve learned here.

Brilliant that you had the presence of mind to remember what to say. Part of feeling fear is forgetting your words, so you are right to feel proud.

But @WaverleyOwl did say it:

I think that there should be more discussion around how it's okay to find people that present as the opposite sex odd and uncanny and unsettling.

The question is, does it count as transphobia, or is it only transphobia if there is actual discrimination?
The analogy I used is racism. Would it be racist to find the presence of black people "odd and unsettling", if you were from a community that almost never saw black people? Or is that just human nature and it only becomes racism if you are deliberately unkind or discriminatory?

I am concerned that newcomers to this site may feel vindicated in their view that Mumsnet is transphobic.

So is "uncanny valley" transphobia?

Finding trans people odd and unsettling is transphobia.

I don't think anyone said that they find trans people odd and unsettling. Males and females of the species have been able to spot each other since time began. It's something instinctual and inbuilt.

Seeing a cleary male person mimicking female behavior and being told "no this isn't a man this is a woman" does something very strange to most peoples brains.

Well, I disagree.

We are wired to find difference unsettling. I live in Scotland where most people are white and I'm not that used to seeing black people. Because of that, they stand out to me. It's just what it is.

What I don't do is discriminate against them. THAT would be racism.

Same with trans people. The vast, vaaast majority of people are not mimicking the other sex. If I were to come across someone that was, it would stand out to me as being different and uncanny.

As above, I wouldn't discriminate. THAT would be transphobic.

How is that hard to understand?

ETA: Would you go to an African country, where white people are rarely seen, and call them all racists for noticing and feeling weird about the one white person in the community?

Finding trans people odd and unsettling is transphobia.

I disagree - we know the basic social rules as far as men and women are concerned. When we see a man who says he's a woman we know he's not and can't really relate to him as woman, but he can't be related to as a man either because he doesn't want to be.

it's okay to find people that present as the opposite sex odd and uncanny and unsettling. That it's not actually transphobic - it's not hate, it's just odd.

Sorry, that is not acceptable. Apologies for using race as an analogy yet again, but it is what comes to mind.
If you are used to living in a community where the vast majority of people are white, you may find being around black people a little odd and unsettling at first - that is racism, even if you don't mean to be unkind or prejudiced.

Finding trans people odd and unsettling is transphobia.

(Doesn't mean transwomen should be in female spaces though, obvs)

Transwomen want to be thought of as women and not doing so is what they'd call transphobic.
So men failing to see transwomen as men is not transphobic.

The first is not transphobic, it is just women asserting their boundaries.
The second IS transphobic - the men are fearful and/or hateful of men who like to present as women. Failing to acknowledge them as men is transphobic.

This is often how I comment publicly. Recently, I commented on a young American man's post, where he stated the UK was executing transpeople. I simply put the dates when we last executed a male and a female. I then suggested perhaps if his sources still believed we were executing people in the UK and they were wrong about that, what else might they not have good up-to-date information on and left it at that. Pebble creating ripples in a pond.

Yeah, we grew up in an era of being told to accept everything and be kind, but at some point our instincts kick in.

It's still taboo to accept people that want to cut off healthy limbs, but what if that got pushed into being acceptable. All our instincts would be screaming that purposefully destroying a healthy body is WRONG.

We think of ourselves as being enlightened and evolved, but from an evolutionary perspective, we are basically just apes with iPhones.

That's a very interesting perspective. Our instincts are being asked to override something that is inbuilt into our consciousness/evolutionary warning signs/survival?

Or we're being told 2 + 2 equal 5 and and not allowed to question it.

May have to re-visit the Gift of Fear for that one.

You know, I think that there should be more discussion around how it's okay to find people that present as the opposite sex odd and uncanny and unsettling. That it's not actually transphobic - it's not hate, it's just odd.

From an evolutionary perspective, it doesn't make any sense. It evokes an instinctual reaction, I think, of something not being right. Why would a male mimic a female if not for some evolutionary advantage (say, having access to more females to mate with).

This is just my own musings whilst trying to articulate what I'm thinking, but this push for everyone to be accepting of everything all the time probably goes against a lot of our instincts.

Apparently the conversation was kicked off by his brother declaring 'JK Rowling is a clown'.

Eventually the brother agreed the solution was 4 sets of toilets - clearly no insight into that this wouldn't be affirming or arousing

Thank you for the perfect illustration of the difference between 'can' and 'may',Fhjiutwafhmbcff! English teachers the world over owe you a debt of gratitude

People of both sexes can do all sorts of things, like speeding or shoplifting.
But there are things they should not do and may not do, like using the wrong toilets. They can, but may not.

DH had a go yesterday with his brother. Bit of a total failure as DH is prob more radical than me, but hadn't got come backs to questions that were answered here years ago. He got flumoxxed by 'but have women been attacked by transwomen in the toilets'.

But it was probably the first time his brother had heard that some people don't think TWAW so it was a start. Or that transwomen aren't all sweet people who are tragically born in the wrong body.

I generally don't use the term transphobic as it makes no sense to me. I don't have a irrational fear of men who identify as not men. I think a lot of men do not see these men as women as they clearly aren't. They can't quite understand why an obviously male person is attempting (and failing) to appear as a woman and expecting to be treated as a woman is society and law. I don't think that's transphobic at all if we are using the term phobic in the correct sense. I think a lot of men think it's strange, bizarre, confusing and probably can't verbalize their thoughts.

Now they may have to start thinking deeper about this as they will have to welcome these men into their spaces.

Transwomen want to be thought of as women and not doing so is what they'd call transphobic.
So men failing to see transwomen as men is not transphobic.

I was told the ruling specifically mentioned transmen who pass and that they should continue to use the men's.

People of both sexes who pass can use toilets for their assumed sex as no-one will know.

I agree I do think a lot of men are transphobic and don't want to accept these different type of men as men. I think this is very much a male issue and it's for men to sort it out and be welcoming and accepting of their brothers.

He thinks they are strange (his words). He understands men who identify as not men shouldn't be in women's spaces but I think he can't quite accept them as men. He used to think that all TIM were gay men too. Someone up thread said that it's baffling and I think that unless you're emersed in it, read the books etc. then it can be very confusing and strange. I hope this doesn't sound phobic in any way but truthfully I do think it can be quite jarring for some people to see a clearly male person attempting to present as a female. Especially when they're saying I will use womens toilets.

Once you start you can’t stop. I remember being in the local hairdressers a few years ago and the subject came up. Every woman in there said it was a load of dangerous nonsense and they were sick to death of it. They had different levels of experience of it from a trans child in the family and being shocked at the school and parents enabling what they saw as seriously damaging. One worked as a MH nurse and (without sharing any personal details) said there was a young man who kept changing his name to different women’s names and when the letters and appointments were in the wrong name refused to attend and kept making complaints they were transphobic, when all they were tying to do was keep up and keep him on his treatment plan. They weren’t nasty or spiteful they were just quietly pissed off with the encroachment and being scared to state the obvious due to the threat of being cut off from family or sacked. Keep speaking out there’s a lot of us out there.

When I read these brave posts about women finding their voices on this I keep thinking about the title of Sarah Polley’s film ‘Women Talking’. There is so much power in women talking, tentatively at first, to each other about this. Keep going, carefully stating your truth whenever you dare. It’s the only way to break the spell.