Reasons you once believed in gender identity

Same here. I was fine with self-ID back when Teresa May was proposing it, but now that TRAs are saying there's no way to stop them invading women's spaces without 'genital inspections' ... let's repeal the GRA and go back to accurate documents that can be asked for when needed.

Nothing has changed in my mind, except as a consequence of the TRA behaviour I’ve become more vocal and less willing to give a millimetre.

Women, children and the LGB community have suffered due to the TRA obsessed dick obsessed (cos let’s face it, they don’t chop it off despite their desperation to appropriate women) misogynists.

I must have missed those Guardian articles commemorating the first men to win women's sports contests, clamouring for convicted rapists to be placed in women's prisons, and celebrating the increasing number of children prescribed puberty blockers by the NHS. I wasn't so much swayed by biased coverage as left in the dark.

And I never even considered the idea that TWAW, because I'd never heard anyone say it, or perhaps I hadn't paid attention or taken it seriously.

All the same, I nodded along with a lot out of a spirit of live and let live. If someone wants to change the sex on his or her passport or birth certificate it's no skin off my nose. Why should I begrudge a man who wants to be referred to as 'she' that small courtesy?

I only really started taking notice when the Tavistock scandal broke. Plus an introduction to gender woo in its full, crazy, glory when Stack Overflow introduced a pronoun policy.

You asked about people who did believe TWAW, of course; but from talking to others, it seems quite a few were, or still are, like I was, just uninformed and incurious about what was going on.

I first came across a TiM at a new job in 2011. I’ve never believed TWAW (ridiculous suggestion!) though did feel a little sorry for this pathetic individual (he was a figure of ridicule by the men though not by the women!!). I don’t even feel pity anymore just disdain - my empathy is for his ex wife and three children.

I didn’t think much beyond feeling sorry for men who felt they had to change sex. I assumed that they all had full surgery etc.

It was years later I followed a link on Twitter to a site called Autostraddle (🤢) that had an article advising lesbians how to have sex with a transwoman. One part suggested the female partner should do the following to her transwoman lover:

’Gently stroke her scrotum’

I thought I’d misread it, but then it got worse.
I thought it was a joke, but sadly not. I then read other things, found out that the vast majority of men have no surgery etc. Then all the court cases, sport, the demands, the misogyny, the laughable made-up ‘non-binary’. On and on.

It’s complete rubbish and anyone who goes along with it is either still labouring under a misapprehension, very stupid, or lying. The worst part for me is that we’re supposed to go along with this ridiculous fiction to spare (mainly) men’s feelings. To quote Greer: I don’t care.

’Gently stroke her scrotum’ indeed.

🤣🤣. Yes I sometimes have in mind the trans identifying male who apparently fooled a woman whose dog was barking at him. “She only barks at men…”.

Ahh yes, the issue of transphobic animals. Where your parrot 'deadnames' you and the dog that is scared of men is still petrified of you, despite you being 'stunning and brave'.

Edit- that is a general 'you' and is not aimed at Bundle.

I believed the 'sex is a spectrum' bit when I first came across genderism about four years ago. Then I read an article by Alex Byrne on what was necessary and sufficient to define 'woman' and several articles re DSDs which revealed these are sex specific. Suddenly I saw what utter nonsense I had believed (much based on what were said to be scientific diagrams of the arc of variation in genitals) - without thinking about it and having studied biology mainly because I was misinformed and only seeing one side of a story. More reading (and I read TWAW stuff when I can stomach it) showed me my complete error. Also personal experience which had been knocking at the back of my mind all the time I believed/was attracted by the sex spectrum guff.
I also learned to suspect the term 'love is love'. That's another (and wicked) narrative.

I remain amazed at how prepared senior people are to beclown themselves in public and say things that every sane person (and many animals) knows to be untrue.

I never believed- I was a bit mystified for a little while by information that was starting to be pumped out by the trans propaganda machine in the early 2000s but I always kept coming back to the basic knowledge that it’s not possible to change sex.

In short, I was 16, clueless about male violence, and I thought it was more important to be nice to men than it was to be fair to women.

Well said @Mermoose

It is also asking to have a man in the changing room alongside young girls.

I am a great believer that people should be able to be who they are and do what they want. Up to the point where they are harming others. When you have males in women’s sport and aggressively pushing into women’s spaces a line has been crossed.

With sport the physical differences are dangerous if there is contact or places are taken based on difference in physical build. In women’s spaces there is a safety aspect and a loss off access to facilities/essential services: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj310jvzpd8o.amp

I misphrased something in my previous post. I should have said: "Caitlin Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair, with genitals tucked out of sight".

It represented a shift towards nothing more being required for one's status as male or female than self-identity. The fact that it came via a celebrity is significant: they expect everyone to pay attention to them even when it's something that ought to be of no consequence at all.

Two main moments

first was about a decade ago when a female friend, had a period of very poor mental health and came out the other side trans and calling everyone who was still worried about her mental health a bigot. Left her husband and children and the majority of her friends to be affirmed by her new community. I tried my very best to believe that this person that I’d seen be a flirtatious, girly happy woman, who I’d seen marry, fall in love, be pregnant, give birth , be a mother ALL as a woman insisting that none if it was true and she’d always been a man . It made no sense, everyone could see how mentally ill she was but she was lost to us all in a flurry of bigot accusations. It was heartbreaking. Still is

second was seeing a friend being hounded out of her community, city, profession, livelihood… for believing the same as I did.

and also when Andy wightman was expelled from the Scottish greens

I never believed in it from the start. When there were a very small number of people who'd had sex changes I didn't give the matter any thought. But when, I think, in 2015 it went mainstream via Caitlin Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair I just thought it was the latest bit of celeb fashion and I thought it was obviously nonsense. What a shame that a piece of self-aggrandisement has pulled so many along in its wake

I did high level sport and never believed in it. The differences once a teenager are huge. Any contact sport would be extremely dangerous with a mixed team. Got injured playing a friendly with mixed teams. It really opened my eyes to the sheer power difference. You can be hugely skilled, but still very vulnerable against a male player.

Such a good question. I don't think I believed in gender identity as such, but I did previously believe that this idea is harmless and that it was all about self expression. I didn't think about the medical side of things at all.

I never believed it and thought that I was living in some kind of dystopian nightmare where people were all going along with something that was clearly not true.

It was actually quite terrifying. Stonewall's sinister 'acceptance without exception' and 'no debate' literally prevented any questioning voice. Anyone who dared was shot down, banned from social media platforms and 'cancelled'.

Even mumsnet would not allow women to discuss this in FWR and we were shunted off to a quiet corner - which we were actually pathetically grateful for. We had strict moderation and language was policed extremely carefully. Even so, mumsnet was doxxed for allowing that limited speech. They even sent a SWAT team to Justine's home.

I'm not kidding, it was an awful, oppressive time. Government were supporting these restrictions and there was media blackout on the subject. livelihoods were lost and families were torn apart. I'm absolutely shocked that it even happened, it seems so unreal now that we are allowed to discuss it rationally.

@StealthIsTheWurst my sister did that when I pointed out a transvestite prostitute to her (we were not in the UK) even though it was blindingly obvious.

The whole "be kind" thing is very sneaky and disingenuous. Tell women that they must never point out the obvious and then when debate finally happens say "but, but I never get misgendered! Noone can tell" errr no, everyone is just being "kind", as you requested.

And I totally get that impulse. I watched a video of a walkthrough of the TRA protests after the ruling and there was one transwoman who seemed so lovely and really innocent to the consequences of what they were doing. I just felt sorry for them. To their face I would definitely have been kind.

Many many years ago I worked in HR as a junior clerical person. I once heard a conversation about a male employee who was threatening to come into work wearing a dress. He was told he would be sacked if he did. This was the 80s. At the same time roughly I was supporting interviewing and escorted clearly a man dressed in feminine clothing. After their interview I heard the panel laughing hysterically. This type of thing upset me and I thought it was wrong. I thought they were treated appallingly. I didn't think much more about it untill........... many many years later hearing G Greer on question time saying something like - what is a woman - and the penny dropped.

I think trans women and trans men are victims of a deeply stereotypical society that shoehorns people into categories. I know a couple of trans people and one detrans person and I have compassion for all of them. I think biology is relevant but I also think people should express themselves however they want.

This is really important. One thing that kept me in the "be kind" space for a long time was befriending a transwoman who was classic HSTS, had all the surgery... but more importantly, was a nice person with a great personality and a wide range of interests. We could have conversations about any number of things, which is a relief when you know a bunch of gay men who've made being gay their whole personality.

If you had asked me did I see this person as a woman... well, no, but it felt unkind to even think that.

But then you get to encounter the different types.

For me, reading trans memoirs has been interesting because the types come out very clearly even if the author doesn't intend it. This may seem a bit amateur psychologist but...

It seems clear to me from Christine Jorgensen's memoir that Jorgensen was a gay man with a massive amount of internalised homophobia who found he could only be comfortable in a female persona.

It seems clear to me from Jan Morris's memoir that Morris was a classic misogynistic AGP. I've never quite figured out the magnetic pull that Morris had for a certain kind of man - probably that upper class confidence, where I find Jorgensen much more likeable.

Elliot Page is contemporary and such a celebrity that I feel I have to tread more carefully... and I hope Page finds a happy place, but it seems to me that Page is carrying around lots of trauma and searching for coping mechanisms. I think it's revealing that Page (who is pushing 40) presents not in the persona of an adult man, but in the persona of a boy. To me, that's not just Page's tiny stature and lack of butchness, it's a search for comfort.

What boggles my mind is that my TRA friends could read these three books and conclude that the authors are the same thing.

I didn’t ever believe it mainly because the trans people I had met in clinical practice were all vulnerable with underlying mental health issues. I believed it was polite to live and let live and to use preferred pronouns (and did until reading Barracker’s pronouns are Rohypnol piece) but I never believed it was kind to lie to them.

I live in Bristol in a very “be kind” area. In our antenatal group as the babies grew up there was a lot of “the MOST important thing is to be kind” as we raised our little ones and sent them to school, even though it was a bit fey at the time, it didn’t seem unreasonable so I went along with it.
There were a couple of (assumed) nice, decent TW at work. A straightforward Yorkshire man at work made some unkind comment and my reaction was defensive of the TW. I claimed to not even know who he was talking about, so indistinguishable from the other women. But I doubted myself as the words came out of my mouth.
Some time later, I broached the topic with some friends (a midwife and an early years leader) and was basically told to wash my mouth out and go and educate myself.
I educated myself on MN. The tipping point was a phrase, I think on MN “there is sex, and there is personality”
But it took years to speak publicly, every time was terrifying and has led to some ostracism from the BK crew but I couldn’t give a shit. Imbeciles.
My two teenage daughters know there are some things that are more important than being kind.

I didn't hear the slogan for many years. I'm not sure of the date it was projected onto the Ministry of Justice as an art event (2015?) and by that time I'd already met transwomen and was in the throes of massive psychological struggles trying to manage how this version of femininity on men impacted me and all the women in my team. That was a long time ago.

I probably would have gone along with it previously because I'd never really thought about it. There was a speech at my wedding about the importance of everyone being able to get married as their true selves, and I approved of that - long before same sex marriage or even the GRA. My husband had been on cross sex hormones for a while but was very very definitely not a woman - had even ended up taking medical action to appear more masculine (that didn't make him more of a man either).

Makes me a little kinder to those who got sucked in to appearing with members of PIE and all that. You need to keep your wits about you and culture is very powerful.

@SionnachRuadh "I stopped going to Pride years ago, because it was being taken over by the fetishists, and lots of people thought that was very weird of me. Apparently we should all be accepting of strange fetishes being paraded down the high street in broad daylight."
I think there's internalised homophobia behind some of it, too.
Maybe a lingering worry, "Perhaps I am just a perverted freak." So that motivates a gay person to create a community where all perversions are welcome, even those that depend on blurring consent.