Reasons you once believed in gender identity

Until 2021I was living abroad in another European country which was slightly behind the UK in terms of gender ideology (and is behind the curve now, aka still fully TWAW). So I wasn’t bathed in any of this cultural indoctrination which led up to TWAW. I first heard about it when JKR wrote her famous essay in 2020 and at the time I was flabbergasted that anyone ACTUALLY could think TWAW. I thought it was just a slogan like “the future is female” or something.

But I was very much on the side of “be kind” and felt slightly embarrassed on behalf of JKR as I thought it was unseemly.

Nevertheless I started reading, and after a couple of hours of the MtF Reddit board I was almost fully peaked.

The thing that held me back was the existence of intersex/DSDs. As I thought, “How can you clearly define male and female as there are people in the middle”? But when that misunderstanding was cleared up, I summitted. And promptly wrote a long and enthusiastic letter to JKR!

I can honestly say that I never believed it.

I never believed Transwomen were anything other than men.

What I did believe was that they were men that were so unhappy that they castrated themselves and therefore deserved some empathy.

Cross dressers were not the same thing. They were just men with a fetish.

It wasn't until a friend came out as trans that my eyes were opened to the utter madness of it all.

I never believed that people could change sex, but was happy to respect someone's pronouns, etc, if they'd been so unhappy they'd required surgery. I always thought of them as a transwoman, or transman - something new and distinct from biological women and men.

I thought that the human body is so complicated, perhaps there's a hidden medical reason they feel the way they do - after all, people used to believe that being gay was a choice, rather than an innate trait. And to be honest, I still wonder this.

But I used to think that all transfolk would have reassignment surgery. The modern definition of trans, where you have transwomen prancing around in a very sexualised fashion and proud of their 'ladydicks' and calling lesbians 'genital fetishists' for not being interested, or transmen happily giving birth and demanding to be recorded as the father on the birth certificate - well, it's all a bit mental, isn't it?

As I got older, I also started asking questions like, "What makes me a woman?", and I couldn't answer that without resorting to biology. It's not my personality, or interests, or fashion choices (which are arguably more 'male' coded) - it's the female body I have.

Why is transgenderism accepted, but identifying as transracial isn't? There's less difference, biologically speaking, between a white person and a black person, than between a man and a woman. Both are biological states that inform how society interacts with them. I've never had anyone able to give me a good answer to that one.

How can a rapist who raped with his penis ever, ever be considered a woman? How can his victim ever be castigated for referring to him as male? Why are transwomen overrepresented in the sex and violent offender categories?

Honestly, I tie myself in knots about it because I know a fully transitioned transwoman, and she's lovely. If you didn't know, you wouldn't know. But she was also a very 'effeminate' boy as a child, who suffered from homophobic bullying, and I can't help but wonder if she would still be a he if boys were allowed to express what's traditionally regarded as feminine traits without castigation.

NC as this could be outing.
I was an equalities champion in a large public sector organisation for a long time when it was just normal BAME, disability, age and gender equality meant biological women. Then stonewall joined our organisation's equality advisory group, one of my new colleagues in the equalities team used to work for stonewall, rainbow laces started to get introduced, we started attending pride events, pronouns had to be added to signatures, they recruited a new head of equalities who was the former head of a controversial LGBT charity, we had awareness training from a transgender awareness charity, we had keynote speakers who were transgender, and despite working with young people, at the time of my departure, they were talking about adapting multiple young people's records, like every young person in Scotland pretty much, to reflect their gender identity as opposed to just sex. There was no alternative point of view given to staff other than TWAW so I was not as educated as I am now, but I was definitely uncomfortable with the equalities focus being entirely on the T and other protected characteristics getting less, or even no, attention. I'm glad to be away from that place but as my background is still DEI jobs, I stay quiet.

Using outdated terminology here, because otherwise it's difficult to explain why.

Had always been live and let live. Had spent my teens in youth theatre where there was a lot of gay and lesbian teens, we socialised in the gay scene, so I was familiar with the few transexuals (post op) who were in the scene too. We tolerated them in the ladies because they were mostly quiet, unassuming and just wanted to fit in.
There was also a group of cross dressers,who would go to the same clubs of a weekend,as it was one of the few places they could freely display their fetish ( talking mid 80's here).
Everyone knew the difference, these men weren't welcome in the ladies, because they were straight and a potential threat.

So initially I was ok with genuine transexuals and supported their wishes to just live their lives.

Then came stonewalls expansion of the transgender umbrella to include what we had previously called transvestites that made me go. 'woah a minute'. I knew that they were mainly straight men with a fetish, who were therefore just as much of a risk as other men.

The TW I knew growing up - a family friend, a neighbour - were obviously to me gay men who for reasons of sexism, culture of origin and homophobia couldn't come out. I saw them go from having been very sad, depressed and closeted to being happier in themselves. Crucially neither of them ever claimed to be female and I thought - this is just the solution for their crushing mental illness and it seemed to have really helped them. They appeared to me to be utterly non-threatening and it was just a kindness to go along with what made them happier and more comfortable in society, it was no skin off my nose what they wore or called themselves or medical treatments they opted into as consenting adults to alleviate their huge distress. I never believed they were female (and neither did they, they were very aware they were not female) but like @Darkgreendarkbark it was a polite fiction to treat them "as women".

Then a number of things happened - I had a baby and went on to breastfeed, and one of them had a real issue with being around me doing something so exclusively biologically female and was alternately aggressive and creepy about it. The other had "bottom surgery" and it went very badly, and then started having health issues from hormones, which was my first realisation that these "gender affirming" treatments are really serious and dangerous. And finally, I realised that other TW were not just claiming to be TW but actually women, and that felt completely dishonest. Then when TW started invading areas that were hard fought for women, like Caitlin Jenner being named "Woman of the Year", I realised this wasn't about a few sad men who wanted a quiet life and relief from mental anguish, this was in fact a very significant threat to women's rights.

Same here.

Dittany took me by the hand (metaphorically speaking) and led me step by step, waiting as the penny dropped, v patient she was.

Almost simultaneously there was also a Tw on the main boards who was building up to a penis inversion and open wound creation, and I was so keen to be kind and supportive. He had his op and his first thoughts were about how deep his created vault was.

I never believed it, but I felt empathy for people who felt as though they were in the wrong body, and I thought Live and Let Live. I didn't realise until quite recently how harmful the whole movement actually is. Watching Dr Upton speak in court really opened my eyes to the ideology, the indoctrination, and to the narcissistic personality type associated with transvestitism. I've met a fair few trans people over the years, some of whom seemed reasonable, and some of whom seemed delusional. Despite their self-identified specialness, I found them all quite boring to talk to, because they had no interests other than trans-ness.

Looking back, I realise the signs were there that I maybe knew unconsciously that something wasn't right. I have never said TWAW, because it's illogical. I've never responded to the "what are your pronouns?" question, and never put them on my emails. I had no idea I was making a political statement! I just don't care what pronouns people use when they talk about me. Everyone knows fine well what pronouns they should be using, so I'm not going to spell it out for them.

Last year I was at an event for a very woke charity. I wore a name badge, but declined a pronoun badge. I was the only person not wearing one, and nobody mentioned it. I had a long conversation with a non-binary person about sexism and gender stereotypes, and I was totally oblivious to the fact that I was the heretic in the room. 😂

I think initially I could nod along politely, in a similar way that, as an atheist, I might when someone mentioned their god or an element of their religion. So in a ‘live and let live’ be kind of way.

But as time went on, and as I read more and more brilliant and articulate posts on here, I just couldn’t square it in my head. And it became clear to me that the belief that TWAW wasn’t just something I didn’t believe in, but was something that was actively harmful. And not just harmful to women, but to vulnerable people searching for an identity or a means of belonging.

Oh yeah, and also when I realised that one virtue-signalling man in particular at my work with his pronouns proudly displayed in his email signature was one of the most misogynistic people I’d ever met.

I was very sympathetic at first. I thought trans = some very vulnerable gay men who simply couldn't live with male expectations. I thought such people were at the extreme end of rejection of masculine stereotypes, to the point where they couldn't live with them at all. I wanted to be kind to those people. But I never thought we all have a wired-in gender-identity that trumps sex.

This has been my exact experience/thought process too.

My early experience was with transvestites, who never expected to be called women, although their ‘character’ might have a feminine name, sometimes talked about in the third person.

Then I met some trans-identifying males who were obviously mentally unwell so presumed that gender dysphoria was a mental illness, then I found out about agp and a lot of things fell into place. The trans- identifying males I meet now are all the latter, sickening to see them trying to latch on to lesbian groups.

Never believed it as such, but used to think it was a polite fiction for a small number of troubled souls who had gone to great efforts to "transition". I'd heard the phrase "sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears", and as I've always been happy to be female, I sort of nodded along, thinking how awful it would be for me to wake up in a male body, and how good it was that my gender and sex therefore "matched". I remember also reading about the new shortening "trans*" which included transsexual, transvestite and all things in-between, and thinking "hmm, seems a bit much, but hey, not my circus".

Five or six years ago, a couple of older relatives started to raise concerns about the issue, and I'm ashamed to admit I thought they were making an unseemly fuss and should pipe down and stop embarrassing themselves.

Then I woke up and saw what was happening. Out there in the world (e.g. Maya), the experiences of trans widows (massive eye-opener) and Tumblr-induced ROGD in my circles.

Same here. Happened very recently. I work in HR and was disturbed by Maya Forstater s treatment as it seemed self evident to me that sex is binary. Couldn't believe people seriously questioned that. Still thought they might be a minority though. Then I followed the Sandie Peggie case and was completely horrified how far this idiocy had spread.

I believed trans people were vulnerable and marginalised and I felt I would try to use preferred pronouns etc if it made them happy. A polite fiction. Never believed TWAW or TMAM for one second. I believed in gender dysphoria (or sex dysphoria) and I still do. I was shocked though when I discovered militant trans activists were actually extremely powerful, not vulnerable or marginalised but actually had the establishment on side. They were bullying women, making death threats, rape threats etc with seemingly no consequences and that caused me to harden my stance.

I think women are natural allies to gender nonconforming men. Women looked after gay men during the AIDS crisis, for example. Unfortunately TW have alienated many potential allies with their insistence that they are literally women. If TW could have said ok, we want to dress in women’s clothes, we want to present ourselves in a feminine way, we have dysphoria about our male bodies, then I’d have been a staunch ally. But no. They didn’t want trans rights,
they wanted women’s rights too.

If I don’t want male people in women’s sports, prisons, rape crisis centres, all-female shortlists etc, then I can’t be on the side of anyone who says TWAW.

I used to believe that TWAW meant that while we all knew they were men, there was a consensus among nice people to pretend that they weren't with the understanding that we all knew it was a pretence. In short, a #bekind approach.

What radicalised me out of this was the trans umbrella appearing and including a lot of foul people whose approach was #beasunkindtowomenaspossible.

I never was on board with the medical treatments.

I don't think I've ever really understood what TWAW is supposed to mean outside of a shared pretence. The only other meanings I can think of suggest that those who hold them are delusional.

Had a pre- and post- transition colleague around 2004-12. He ignored and tended to belittle me before transition, afterwards was all over me for companionship in some slightly frosty work environments. Went along with it until a performative show of lipstick application in the ladies loos when I realised that I and my presence was a required element of the process (I don’t wear makeup, skirts or anything traditionally feminine myself so remember feeling like an awkward
stage prop). Felt so angry and tricked, afterwards….then found FWR

I was a teacher and mother of 2 teens who were fully onboard with the trans acceptance. Increasing numbers of ‘trans’ kids at school who I felt sympathy for and liked very much. I oversaw the school’s diversity & inclusion working party and didn’t question their approach which seemed - well… inclusive. At the same time I was not fully on board with adult TWAW arguments but was shouted down by my dds . I also couldn’t get onboard with all the JKR hatred as I couldn’t believe someone whose values seem to align with mine would feel so strongly without good reason.

I started discussing it with a few feminist teacher friends (almost in whispers as it felt so subversive and ‘right wing’) and the scales started falling away. Engaged then with the mumsnet forums, the podcasts about the Tavistock and Witch Trials of JKR and now I’m fully GC.

I never believed it. It reminded me too much of the nonsensical, irrational fog that stopped me joining left wing groups in the 70s - I could never work out why wanting justice in society requires you to park your brain in the cellar. I still don't. But in order to see the results of the poll upthread, you have to answer it, I think. I can't.

None of those really apply. I just didn’t really think about it in any depth and I think knew they weren’t actual women, but “be kind” and “TWAW” seemed to be the mantra so I went along with it because I’m a decent person.
I didn’t even care if they went in the same loo. It was only when I started reading more about it that I realised why it could bother other women and I didn’t have the right to throw their rights away.
Once I started down the GC rabbit hole I learned so much and now I’m firmly GC (and yet I’m still a decent and kind person funnily enough!)

Oh god what a horrible experience.

Do you know the grifting for funds thing is pretty common in certain sectors. I know of even sympathetic trans allies who are sick of it.

When I did twitter I followed lots of transwomen most of whom were not sex denialists. Most really did seem ok but I remember seeing a "choke on my dick" comment from one and I was like No. Fuck off. Done.

Entirely 'be kind' brigade until I engaged in some MN debates.

I hadn't really been aware of the wider implications and how far reaching that has been. I started getting frustrated by the militancy of some trans voices online.

I, truthfully, never did. But then my first experience of meeting someone who was trans identified I was very very young. And it was plainly obvious to me then that he was a man, and remained so after surgery. At that stage, I was obviously polite and given my age, it never entered my head to refer to him as anything other than his chosen name and pronouns etc. It wasn’t a “thing” back then as such (early 90s). I met another in my teens through our social scene who, again, it was plainly obvious was a man and not one of us seriously countenanced the idea that he was really a woman all along. He was lecherous and awful before he announced he was a woman and remained so after the fact.
As an adult, I didn’t really start forming cohesive thoughts around it until I saw the swathes of teenagers starting to identify out of their sex. Perhaps it’s because my own kids are quite “alt” and so were the crowds they ran in, so a higher incidence of their peers announced themselves to be trans than might be typical of a group of teens. But it became clear to me this was a social contagion, made up mostly of the misfits, ND kids, kids who were already struggling with their mental health. Except this wasn’t something harmless, these children were not happy in their “new identities”, they became obsessed with the idea that they were hated, or constantly persecuted and misgendered, which, obviously if you believe that about yourself, is going to negatively impact your mental health anyway. I saw their relationships with parents break down, parents who knew it was all bollocks, yet who were ignored at every turn. Honestly, for a lot of those young people, the singular turning point leading to their announcement was a visit from an LGBT youth group to the school. It was billed as personal/sexual education but it absolutely was not that.
So from then on my spidey senses were tingling.
I’ve never believed any trans person was “born in the wrong body”. I think for the small minority who experience genuine distress, it’s not distress at their sex and they’ve latched onto that as a hyper fixation. I think for most trans identified men, it’s a fetish. And those who I have met and know bear that out.

I never believed it but I was prepared to live and let live until I became aware of harms being caused to women and children by access to single sex spaces. I peaked very quickly.

I ticked seemingly good arguments but tbh I didn't give it much in depth thought. The transwoman I knew was elderly, nice, non aggressive, proud and honest about her journey as a transwoman and I don't even think she used women's spaces.

I got all my news from BBC and Guardian. I actually remember agreeing with Trump when he originally said transwomen should be allowed in women's "bathrooms" back before he saw which way the wind was blowing! I assumed all transwomen had had their dicks removed like my colleague.

I was persuaded by the "intersex is actually really common" argument but didn't look into it.

I'd watched an explicit film about bottom surgery for transmen back in the early 00s. They showed putting plastic rods inside to achieve erection. But as I'd met several transwomen and no transmen I assumed they were super rare.