Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side

214 replies

transdimensional · 22/04/2025 16:50

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how does the conclusion follow? What about a gender-nonconforming male who identifies as a man (not as a woman)? He would still have to go into the gents' even if admission to toilets was on the basis of gender identity. Should he also go to the ladies' to be safe? What about various other vulnerable groups? Young boys, elderly men who may be frail without being disabled, or ethnic minority males in an area where a white racist movement is strong - maybe they would all be safer in the ladies'? But it doesn't mean that's the answer!

Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not.
This implies that the ladies' toilet is no safer than the gents', and therefore it completely contradicts the first point!

Claim 3: That having rules about who can and can't enter the toilets will lead to a surge in TM and others being wrongly accused of being in the wrong toilets.

But even under the EHRC's and Scottish government's understanding of the law, there were theoretical limitations on who could enter which toilets (in theory you would have needed a GRC). So there have always been rules about who can enter. Does anyone recall a huge problem of false accusations before 2010 or before 2004? If not, why should it start now?

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 07:11

It's @MordantCarnival who questions all our biology knowledge @ArabellaScott @MementoMountain was answering mordant's question about how much biology we know.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 23/04/2025 07:09

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that TRAs are either:

  1. Thick
  2. Over emotional
  3. Thick and over emotional

I’m sick of trying to present logical arguments. I just have to leave the room to prevent myself from saying, ‘Grow up and read something other than memes.’

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:07

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 07:02

You’re asking the wrong person!

Am I?! Bugger. Sorry! The one with the PhD who claims to know all about it.

forgotmyusername1 · 23/04/2025 07:06

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 06:22

"Gender ideology is built on a pack of lies and circular arguments."
- Circumfrences

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

"Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not."
- Transdimensional

It's true that dangerous males will do precisely that, but the logical fallacy that this means women who were born as physical - physical, not biological (see intersex and chromosomal variation) - males will automatically present a risk.

As you rightly assert, dangerous men are not going to be deterred by a door bearing a sign of a person in a dress, but let's forego the bathroom entirely. If men intend to be predatory they need not use a woman's bathroom; they simply get a job in law enforcement, or work as a youth volunteer at a local church, or be your boss.

Let's be quite clear. This HC ruling has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women; you allowed yourselves to be led by bigots into alienating and scapegoating a vulnerable minority group who have done nothing to you and whose suffering you have neither the inclination or education to understand.

Well Robert Winston has said humans can't change sex and I am prepared to bet he beats you in educational top trumps.

Dontcallmescarface · 23/04/2025 07:05

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:52

Trans rights are human rights.

Women's rights are dangerous and hateful even to discuss.

If women are so awful then why do so many men want to be one?
What rights have been taken away from trans"women" exactly...the right to pee in a safe space? Well welcome to womanhood because that's exactly the same right that the TRA's want to take from us.

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 07:02

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:00

I'm keen to hear MementoMountain 's solution. Should we have all spaces mixed sex? Or what?

You’re asking the wrong person!

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:00

I'm keen to hear MementoMountain 's solution. Should we have all spaces mixed sex? Or what?

Overhaul54 · 23/04/2025 06:57

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.
I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.
So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

I am currently having this same debate with a close friend. It’s crazy.
Even if it were true that people were on some sort of spectrum, there still requires a cut off for male/female and a third space for the confused middle.

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 06:52

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 06:41

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

PhD level. Yours?

Throwing my PhD on the table too!

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:52

Trans rights are human rights.

Women's rights are dangerous and hateful even to discuss.

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 06:50

I didn't take biology because our biology teacher was a predatory creep who abused pubescent girls.

So - educate me - how many sexes are there?

And is the proposition that VSCs and DSDs mean that everyone should just choose which space they wish to use?

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:48

Rare chromosomal conditions exist, therefore biology isn't real for the vast majority of people who don't have any such condition.

TheaBrandt1 · 23/04/2025 06:46

Even I as a thicko who got a B in gcse biology can see understand that you can’t actually change sex.

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:43

The TRA definition of the word "woman" is set in stone (despite the fact that it's changed from "post-op transsexual" to "anyone who feels a bit girly" in just 20 years) and must be adopted by the whole of society, otherwise we're literally erasing transwomen's existence (despite the fact that it's based on a concept that's unobservable, unmeasurable and indefinable even by those people who believe in it).

The GC definition of the word "woman" is completely irrelevant and/or hateful, and changing this meaning would have no impact on the identity of women, and we must erase that use of the word "woman" from all medical and legal documents (despite the fact that it's based on observable, material reality)

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 06:43

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 06:41

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

PhD level. Yours?

Oooh, I love a bit of education top trumps in the morning.
Throwing my PhD onto the table too.

OldCrone · 23/04/2025 06:42

The contradictory attitude towards medical treatment for adults and children is the one that stands out for me.

A man who makes no changes to his body should be accepted as a woman if he claims to be a transwoman. "Some women have penises, you bigots."

The same people claim that children should be medicated, sterilised and mutilated if they claim to be 'trans'.

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 06:41

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

PhD level. Yours?

TheaBrandt1 · 23/04/2025 06:38

It’s essentially the “what’s yours is mine and what’s mine is mine too” theory writ large.

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 06:36

Kinsters · 23/04/2025 06:32

This is the oddest one for me. Trans "rights" quite clearly do impact on women's rights and it's impossible to have a productive discussion on this issue if one side of the debate refuses to acknowledge it's even an issue at all.

Funny as I find some of these contradictions it is stifling to debate and the result of no debate is we have to come down on either black or white ie self ID or "biological sex only". It looked like self ID for a while but thankfully common sense seems to have prevailed.

Yes, women asserting their rights diminishes trans rights but somehow this isn't true the other way round, supposedly.

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 06:33

"Gender ideology is built on a pack of lies and circular arguments."
- Circumfrences
I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.
I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.
So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

Geeez, are you still trotting out the intersex argument? Have you paid no attention?

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2025 06:33

@MordantCarnival - for clarity did you study Biology after 14?

Kinsters · 23/04/2025 06:32

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:26

Trans rights don't impact on women's rights in any way whatsoever.

Women's rights are hateful and anyone who stands up for them is a transphobic bigot.

This is the oddest one for me. Trans "rights" quite clearly do impact on women's rights and it's impossible to have a productive discussion on this issue if one side of the debate refuses to acknowledge it's even an issue at all.

Funny as I find some of these contradictions it is stifling to debate and the result of no debate is we have to come down on either black or white ie self ID or "biological sex only". It looked like self ID for a while but thankfully common sense seems to have prevailed.

TheaBrandt1 · 23/04/2025 06:32

I read it that deffo is putting together their contradictory views.

Gettingmadderallthetime · 23/04/2025 06:30

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:28

Gender is just a social construct.

Gender is far more important than any material reality.

Are these your own views? (No quotes used)

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 06:28

Gender is just a social construct.

Gender is far more important than any material reality.

Swipe left for the next trending thread