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Original poster

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side

214 replies

transdimensional · 22/04/2025 16:50

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how does the conclusion follow? What about a gender-nonconforming male who identifies as a man (not as a woman)? He would still have to go into the gents' even if admission to toilets was on the basis of gender identity. Should he also go to the ladies' to be safe? What about various other vulnerable groups? Young boys, elderly men who may be frail without being disabled, or ethnic minority males in an area where a white racist movement is strong - maybe they would all be safer in the ladies'? But it doesn't mean that's the answer!

Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not.
This implies that the ladies' toilet is no safer than the gents', and therefore it completely contradicts the first point!

Claim 3: That having rules about who can and can't enter the toilets will lead to a surge in TM and others being wrongly accused of being in the wrong toilets.

But even under the EHRC's and Scottish government's understanding of the law, there were theoretical limitations on who could enter which toilets (in theory you would have needed a GRC). So there have always been rules about who can enter. Does anyone recall a huge problem of false accusations before 2010 or before 2004? If not, why should it start now?

OP posts:
CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 09:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 08:58

BezMills · 23/04/2025 08:56

With all due respect, copy pasting something you found on the Internet and clearly don't even understand is not the gold standard of argument.

To then assume you're talking to a bunch of dimmo fools and attempt a condescending put down on the back of such thin gruel, well that's just rude.

TRSOH see disobedient MNers as hysterical foolish old hags who only know about nappies, handbags and laundry.

BezMills · 23/04/2025 08:56

With all due respect, copy pasting something you found on the Internet and clearly don't even understand is not the gold standard of argument.

To then assume you're talking to a bunch of dimmo fools and attempt a condescending put down on the back of such thin gruel, well that's just rude.

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 08:53

So my upcoming PhD doesn’t qualify me to comment on matters of biology, but I saw this X.com thread earlier so am chucking this into the educational top trumps game

https://x.com/CassieDebus/status/1913536727114985513

https://x.com/CassieDebus/status/1913536727114985513

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 08:52

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:48

Yep they said more or less the same thing on
Page 2 | How do I handle this?! | Mumsnet
the same 'I knew everything that there is to know about human biology by the age of 14' line🙄
I posted a link to this thread.

Show quote history

Imagine thinking what you learn at school is as much as you can ever learn about any given subject :)

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:48

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 08:32

It seems Mordant has C&P the intersex bit into at least one other thread (How do I handle this?), has anyone spotted it anywhere else?

Yep they said more or less the same thing on
Page 2 | How do I handle this?! | Mumsnet
the same 'I knew everything that there is to know about human biology by the age of 14' line🙄
I posted a link to this thread.

Page 2 | How do I handle this?! | Mumsnet

Full disclosure, had a couple of wines. Out for a drink with eldest DD and DD3, who had more than a couple. She decided, whilst obviously drunk, to h...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317853-how-do-i-handle-this?page=2&reply=143762786

RoyalCorgi · 23/04/2025 08:39

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

We've been told a million times by trans activists that who uses what toilet isn't important - that we all have gender-neutral toilets at home. So if it's of so little consequence, why can't they use the men's toilets?

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/04/2025 08:36

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:23

'Speggheads' - love it and will definitely borrow it!
07.51 and you've already won the internet for today😂

Show quote history

I admit I was paraphrasing. 😁

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:32

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 06:22

"Gender ideology is built on a pack of lies and circular arguments."
- Circumfrences

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

"Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not."
- Transdimensional

It's true that dangerous males will do precisely that, but the logical fallacy that this means women who were born as physical - physical, not biological (see intersex and chromosomal variation) - males will automatically present a risk.

As you rightly assert, dangerous men are not going to be deterred by a door bearing a sign of a person in a dress, but let's forego the bathroom entirely. If men intend to be predatory they need not use a woman's bathroom; they simply get a job in law enforcement, or work as a youth volunteer at a local church, or be your boss.

Let's be quite clear. This HC ruling has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women; you allowed yourselves to be led by bigots into alienating and scapegoating a vulnerable minority group who have done nothing to you and whose suffering you have neither the inclination or education to understand.

Copy-pasting the same bullshit into multiple threads doesn't make it correct.

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 08:32

It seems Mordant has C&P the intersex bit into at least one other thread (How do I handle this?), has anyone spotted it anywhere else?

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:23

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/04/2025 07:51

This must be why so many of them are speggheads. 🤣

Show quote history

'Speggheads' - love it and will definitely borrow it!
07.51 and you've already won the internet for today😂

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 23/04/2025 08:22

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:46

I'm actually still cross with that slimy creep biology teacher. I liked biology.

And now I'm stuck with my impoverished inability to grasp the multitudinous wonder of the sex spectrum! The unfathomable mysteries of cakegender, bigender, and spongebobgender, forever denied to my limited grasp of Sciencing.

I am sorry for your experience

in the interests of people like you and me I am putting my cse grade 3 chemistry and ungraded O’level physics on the table

i told them I didn’t want to do science….i showed them!

wait 🤔

DeffoNeedANameChange · 23/04/2025 08:20

sashh · 23/04/2025 07:53

We expect children to use the correct toilets from a fairly young age. If it's safe for a 10 year old boy it should be safe for a TW.

I keep saying this, having a tiny bladder and needing to sip water almost constantly I have, on occasion, used the gents.

A loud knock followed by, "Is any one in there, I need to use the toilet" before I go in warns any one and I have even had one man 'stand guard' outside so no other men came in.

The one that really gets me is that TM can grow beards and look really masculine and women won't want them in the toilets and any man can claim to be a TM.

Well any man can currently claim to be a TW.

Show quote history

And it would actually be illegal for a man to pretend to be a transman in order to access women's spaces, whereas they want it to be perfectly legal for a man to "pretend" to be a transwoman in order to access women's spaces.

Dontcallmescarface · 23/04/2025 08:19

When a trans persons shows me evidence of a GC woman holding a sign saying "kill all trans", "bring back witch burning" and other such hateful things, then I will take their " the GC movement want to eradicate trans people" claims seriously. It's the trans movement calling for a section of people to be erased, not the other way around.

BezMills · 23/04/2025 08:11

Drops BSc Hons in Anatomy from the University of Edinburgh School of Medicine on the thread

Clang

LongRangeDessertGroup · 23/04/2025 08:06

Stepfordian · 23/04/2025 07:24

The thing I don’t get is if it is so dangerous for a trans woman to use the men’s loos why don’t they simply leave the house dressed in jeans and a hoodie, like 50%-60% of women I see out and about on a daily basis, then no one would know they were a trans woman and problem solved. There are plenty of men walking around with long hair and make up on. We seem to have forgotten that it is a choice to be a trans woman, it’s not a choice to be a woman, and choices have consequences.

A TW explained this to me that they must wear make-up, dress in a “feminine” manner, and grow their hair long because otherwise they would be presumed to be male and that would be the worst thing ever.
They went on to say they were a better woman than actual women because actual women aren’t feminine enough and often too lazy to wear make-up and style their hair.
They then got quite upset that they had to make so much effort and it wasn’t fair at all that I could wear what I liked and no one would mis-gender me.
(I almost exclusively wear jeans, t-shirts and trainers, no make-up)

The infamous photo of Izzard in the ladies loo, there’s a person wearing a skirt and pink coat with high-heeled boots. The other people in the photo are wearing trousers or jeans and trainers, no pink.
I could have a guess as to who the male is, although I could be wrong as I only have GCSE-level Biology and went to a shit school.

Icreatedausernameyippee · 23/04/2025 08:01

The DSD and PCOS arguments are really getting me.
I have PCOS. I'm the size of an average man. I've got a fabulous moustache and beard.
I'm still clearly a woman. I've never been questioned about whether I'm a female or not and if I was questioned, that's for me to defend.

Throwing other peoples physical conditions under into the mix as means to obscure the true nature of their delusions is disgusting.

FortyElephants · 23/04/2025 07:55

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 06:22

"Gender ideology is built on a pack of lies and circular arguments."
- Circumfrences

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

"Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not."
- Transdimensional

It's true that dangerous males will do precisely that, but the logical fallacy that this means women who were born as physical - physical, not biological (see intersex and chromosomal variation) - males will automatically present a risk.

As you rightly assert, dangerous men are not going to be deterred by a door bearing a sign of a person in a dress, but let's forego the bathroom entirely. If men intend to be predatory they need not use a woman's bathroom; they simply get a job in law enforcement, or work as a youth volunteer at a local church, or be your boss.

Let's be quite clear. This HC ruling has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women; you allowed yourselves to be led by bigots into alienating and scapegoating a vulnerable minority group who have done nothing to you and whose suffering you have neither the inclination or education to understand.

Oh dear. Still using people with disorders of sexual development as a pro trans ideology argument.

All people with a Y chromosome are male. They may have an atypical number of chromosomes and an atypical physical developmental trajectory but they are male. They aren't a third sex. The existence of people with developmental disorders doesn't negate the fact that humans are a sexually dimorphic species with two sexes.

sashh · 23/04/2025 07:53

WilfredsPies · 22/04/2025 22:18

It's probably true that they're less safe there

Says who? How many transwomen have been assaulted in male facilities in the UK? Why is anyone accepting that transwomen aren’t safe in the men’s loos?

Sorry - that came over as far more aggressive than intended.

Edited

We expect children to use the correct toilets from a fairly young age. If it's safe for a 10 year old boy it should be safe for a TW.

I keep saying this, having a tiny bladder and needing to sip water almost constantly I have, on occasion, used the gents.

A loud knock followed by, "Is any one in there, I need to use the toilet" before I go in warns any one and I have even had one man 'stand guard' outside so no other men came in.

The one that really gets me is that TM can grow beards and look really masculine and women won't want them in the toilets and any man can claim to be a TM.

Well any man can currently claim to be a TW.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/04/2025 07:51

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 07:48

Don’t worry, I’ve got you. This is what it’s all about:

Show quote history

This must be why so many of them are speggheads. 🤣

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2025 07:49

Stepfordian · 23/04/2025 07:42

And the argument that they’d be unsafe in the men’s doesn’t quote stack up either, either they know they think they’re unsafe because they know they don’t pass in which case they’re saying men would beat them up for being effeminate men, not likely in the average cafe/shopping centre/pub loos in 2025 or they’re unsafe because they do pass and men would assume a woman was in the men’s loos and assault them, again unlikely, I accidentally walked into a men’s loos in a restaurant a little while ago, I was met with surprise and embarrassment by the man in there who quickly pointed out I was in the wrong place.

Men have been walking into the mens wearing goth, new romantic and alternative clobber for years. It was fine. Cos this is the UK and as a rule we are perhaps more accepting of non conforming dress than a lot of other countries

Now suddenly after years of doing this, there's suddenly a massive backlash in the UK to males in make up and nail varnish? Am I really supposed to believe this?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 07:48

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:46

I'm actually still cross with that slimy creep biology teacher. I liked biology.

And now I'm stuck with my impoverished inability to grasp the multitudinous wonder of the sex spectrum! The unfathomable mysteries of cakegender, bigender, and spongebobgender, forever denied to my limited grasp of Sciencing.

Don’t worry, I’ve got you. This is what it’s all about:

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side
TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 23/04/2025 07:48

"I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact."

If the basic's baffle you its not surprising your having difficulties in comprehending reality. You should probably look in to doing something about that.

SabbatWheel · 23/04/2025 07:47

Kinsters · 23/04/2025 07:29

Yes, they even have a term for it - "boy mode".

Show quote history

Oh yes, the irony of 'being able' to swap from boy mode to girl mode and use whatever spaces they want.
Having their cake and eating it, much?!

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 07:46

I'm actually still cross with that slimy creep biology teacher. I liked biology.

And now I'm stuck with my impoverished inability to grasp the multitudinous wonder of the sex spectrum! The unfathomable mysteries of cakegender, bigender, and spongebobgender, forever denied to my limited grasp of Sciencing.

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