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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side

214 replies

transdimensional · 22/04/2025 16:50

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how does the conclusion follow? What about a gender-nonconforming male who identifies as a man (not as a woman)? He would still have to go into the gents' even if admission to toilets was on the basis of gender identity. Should he also go to the ladies' to be safe? What about various other vulnerable groups? Young boys, elderly men who may be frail without being disabled, or ethnic minority males in an area where a white racist movement is strong - maybe they would all be safer in the ladies'? But it doesn't mean that's the answer!

Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not.
This implies that the ladies' toilet is no safer than the gents', and therefore it completely contradicts the first point!

Claim 3: That having rules about who can and can't enter the toilets will lead to a surge in TM and others being wrongly accused of being in the wrong toilets.

But even under the EHRC's and Scottish government's understanding of the law, there were theoretical limitations on who could enter which toilets (in theory you would have needed a GRC). So there have always been rules about who can enter. Does anyone recall a huge problem of false accusations before 2010 or before 2004? If not, why should it start now?

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · 23/04/2025 09:51

LongRangeDessertGroup · 23/04/2025 09:48

To be fair my half-blind dog can tell the difference between a man and a woman and he failed all his science exams.

Joking aside that is actually a good point about "passing"
My dog knows what sex someone is, even from a distance (prefers women)

takehimjolene · 23/04/2025 09:50

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there.

Under this argument need for TW to use female toilets is based on safety, so presumably the TRAs fear than men will attack them if they use men's spaces. Do they protest etc about men making them feel scared in this way and excluding them from men's spaces? No. Do they photograph themselves wearing dresses etc in the men's toilets to show that they can't be pushed out? Of course not.
At the same time, TRAs argue that 'TERFs' objecting to them being in female spaces is 'literal violence' and a threat to their very existence. 'TERFs' definitely consider themselves to be women and will definitely use female spaces but the TRA reaction to this perceived threat is to go in to their spaces anyway.
So from a TRA perspective- men's spaces may have men in that might hurt me, better keep out and no reason to make a fuss. Women's spaces will have women in there that we claim are our biggest threat- let's go in there anyway, threaten them with violence if they challenge us and try to have get them cancelled/sacked etc.

See also, everyone should 'be kind', and anyone who isn't 'kind' will be threatened until they are.

LongRangeDessertGroup · 23/04/2025 09:48

To be fair my half-blind dog can tell the difference between a man and a woman and he failed all his science exams.

Kinsters · 23/04/2025 09:45

Oh I thought of another one.

Now: we haven't been allowed to participate in debate

Previously: #nodebate and we won't share a platform with transphobes

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 09:45

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 09:23

Oh lord. Just come back to this post-coffee and realise I've caused chaos.

I'm really sorry, I confused you with the Mordant poster. In my defence, it was early, no coffee had been taken, and both your usernames do start with the letter M.

(Science qualifications from Sesame Street)

Hoppinggreen · 23/04/2025 09:40

TW as a concept is contradictory, it hadn't really occurred to me until I saw a (sane) TW being interviewed after the Ruling
He said that of course he was a man because to be a TW one HAD to be a man, it was the whole definition of a TW.

DialSquare · 23/04/2025 09:37

Fuck me, I didn’t even take science as an option in 4th form secondary school and even I know that people with DSDs are all either Male or Female.

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:29

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 09:27

I read Memento's post as a support for biological reality and mine was meant to agree with Memento.

Mine too Grin

For a short time, I was worried I'd got the wrong end of the stick, went back and re-read to check!

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:29

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 09:27

I read Memento's post as a support for biological reality and mine was meant to agree with Memento.

So embarrassing. I should really hand my PhD back after this debacle 🤣

Igneococcus · 23/04/2025 09:27

I read Memento's post as a support for biological reality and mine was meant to agree with Memento.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:24

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 09:23

Oh lord. Just come back to this post-coffee and realise I've caused chaos.

To be fair, I think a lot of us [me!] should have come back post-coffee, rather than before 😬

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 09:23

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:20

As far as I can tell, all the PhDs mentioned on this thread are from people who are reality-based.

Oh lord. Just come back to this post-coffee and realise I've caused chaos.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:22

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:20

As far as I can tell, all the PhDs mentioned on this thread are from people who are reality-based.

Oh man. You’re right there too. Head hanging, shame everywhere.

I’ll sweep up, don’t worry @ArabellaScott…

MementoMountain · 23/04/2025 09:22

Yup.

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:20

As far as I can tell, all the PhDs mentioned on this thread are from people who are reality-based.

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 09:18

I'm getting VERY confused by all the PhDs being dropped all over the place.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:16

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:14

They didn't... they did a single-post C&P drive-by.

Oh I totally stand corrected - it was some other enormous PhD waver who was also taunting us ignoramouses!

As y’all were.

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:14

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:13

Well, they did come back to wave their enormous PhD at us…

They didn't... they did a single-post C&P drive-by.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 23/04/2025 09:13

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 09:09

So, has this Mordant poster just sprinkled the one cut and paste post over various places? And fucked off, having dispensed their great wisdom to the unwashed hordes?

It's not really what I'd call engagement.

Well, they did come back to wave their enormous PhD at us…

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 09:13

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:05

I don't think @BezMills was replying to you, but to the multi-thread word-salad-tosser.

Oops will see if I can get it deleted. Sorry @BezMills you popped up after my post so, being the narcissist I clearly am, though it was all about me 🤦🏽‍♀️

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 09:12

toadinthebucket · 23/04/2025 09:05

Pretty sure you've got the wrong end of the stick. It wasn't about you, it was about Mordant

Oops - sorry!! 🤦🏽‍♀️ need more coffee obviously..

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2025 09:09

So, has this Mordant poster just sprinkled the one cut and paste post over various places? And fucked off, having dispensed their great wisdom to the unwashed hordes?

It's not really what I'd call engagement.

toadinthebucket · 23/04/2025 09:05

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Pretty sure you've got the wrong end of the stick. It wasn't about you, it was about Mordant

Kucinghitam · 23/04/2025 09:05

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I don't think @BezMills was replying to you, but to the multi-thread word-salad-tosser.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 09:04

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 06:22

"Gender ideology is built on a pack of lies and circular arguments."
- Circumfrences

I'm always baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously cling to it as though it were scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - make statements like this I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

"Claim 2: That there is no use banning self-identified TW from the ladies' on the basis they might represent a risk, because genuinely dangerous males won't care whether they're allowed in or not."
- Transdimensional

It's true that dangerous males will do precisely that, but the logical fallacy that this means women who were born as physical - physical, not biological (see intersex and chromosomal variation) - males will automatically present a risk.

As you rightly assert, dangerous men are not going to be deterred by a door bearing a sign of a person in a dress, but let's forego the bathroom entirely. If men intend to be predatory they need not use a woman's bathroom; they simply get a job in law enforcement, or work as a youth volunteer at a local church, or be your boss.

Let's be quite clear. This HC ruling has absolutely nothing to do with protecting women; you allowed yourselves to be led by bigots into alienating and scapegoating a vulnerable minority group who have done nothing to you and whose suffering you have neither the inclination or education to understand.

What do a vanishingly rare number of people with DSDs have to do with people who are unambiguously XY male but believe they are entitled to women's spaces and sports because of their gender identity?

People with DSDs, whether they are male or female, do not present a statistically significant risk to women or children because they are such a tiny proportion of the population. Unlike male people, who are about 50% of the population and can easily be banned from women's spaces because, contrary to what trans activists would have us believe, we can in fact correctly identify them close to 100% of the time, just from looking at them and without the need for any genital inspections or karyotype analysis.

It's weird that you think putting on a dress is as difficult as getting a job in law enforcement, or even volunteering at a church, both of which require background checks.

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