Am I alone in NOT wanting a great flourishing of third spaces but to prefer that the definition of what being a man is widens...

If im out and about anytime and need the loo i`ll just park my backside in a bush as it would be safer.

I’d like to see fourth spaces (after disability spaces) being available for anyone who needs them.
or preferably, all services to be fully enclosed single person/family spaces.

That would be the disabled toilet/changing

I think a transman who genuinely passes (i.e. has gone though significant physical alterations) may as well use the gents if they like, as nobody will notice, they pose no threat to the men in there, and there is virtually no chance of a sexual motive (which can't be said of all males in the ladies'). This would truly be someone who "just needs to pee". Obviously they can also use unisex facilities if they prefer, which would be safer for them too. I obviously don't object in theory to a transman in the ladies' (i.e. if I knew they were female), but if they literally pass as a man, then it seems a bit pointless and alarming to the other ladies in there.

I think that the people with penises should sort it out between themselves rather than making it the responsibility of the people without penises to provide a solution for them.

If I tattoo the anarchy symbol an inch tall on my face, people are going to treat me differently than if I don't. Body modifications have natural consequences and those inflicting body modifications on themselves shouldn't complain about those consequences.

Plenty of religious women, including Orthodox Jews and Muslims, don't get to swim at all unless guaranteed single-sex sessions are offered. Why should those women be excluded because some other women took testosterone?

A quick look at women's bodybuilding competitions would indicate that women can obtain "big guns" without taking testosterone. Building muscle is not the sole preserve of trans-identified females.

We don't allow men with gynaecomastia into women's changing rooms, they use the men's. The same applies to trans-identified males who have grown breasts.

I agree.
But I do wonder what happens with transmen. I worked with one for ages before someone told me. He was very manly looking, I would have been totally freaked out if I saw him in the ladies. But then again, will they care or listen? Or more likely just continue going into the men’s where no one questions them anyway.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about it. There should be single sex spaces, and enough self-enclosed unisex ones to accommodate disabled people and anyone else who needs or wants a private space for any reason, trans included if they feel the need. I'm not going to be wringing my hands about men of different aesthetic persuasions singing kumbaya together in the gents.

Indeed, and it is men who have to sort themselves out and fully accept all men in their spaces.

And women should not be expected to answer "well where will my lovely transwoman friend be able to pee?" Men must answer.

Women should not be expected to solve the issue of third spaces. We offered, ten years or so ago, and it was all tumbleweeds. Stonewall and the men who claim womanhood were unable to contemplate third spaces, only women's spaces would do.

Women say no. What are the men saying?

I think this is a fair point (despite having just used the expression 3rd space myself).

Additional/unisex/gender neutral space maybe (delete as appropriate)

You're not alone, no. But these days I'll take anything to ensure my daughters can have their separate spaces from potential predators men in dresses.

completely agree OP

but I think telling TRAs they now have to go and campaign for 3rd spaces (like women had to campaign for 2nd spaces) will be very instructive for onlookers- its an obvious solution, so I'd like to hear them explain why its not good enough

The issue here should never have involved women. Men feeling uber feminine and presenting in a way that’s congruent with their feelings are still men.

Yes, you’ve put that better than I could @Barearse

Some women can't share a space with males due to religious beliefs, where do you suggest they go?

Maybe, although I’m inclined to think

• the thrill of crossing women’s boundaries with apparent impunity and spiting women
• the “validation”
• the special caste status

were equal or greater drivers to the behaviour. TRAs generally come across (in public at least) as ragey and trolling, rather than fearful.

Disabled toilets/facilities are either necessarily single-sex because they are single-user rooms only, or they are a cubicle within a larger women’s/men’s/unisex toilet block housing multiple cubicles.

Disabled people have the same biological sex and may or may not be trans, just like anyone else, so the fact they’re disabled doesn’t mean they need a separate category of sex segregation; just that they also need to be accommodated in each of the spaces.

‘Would you expect to see someone with a beard and big guns in a woman's toilet? Should someone with breast be expected to change for swimming among men because they were born a boy?’

If men want to have breast implants it’s up to them, but it shouldn’t have anything to do with women. These men with breast implants are protected by law against discrimination in male prisons, hospital wards and changing rooms etc. If they receive harassment or discrimination in these male spaces they need to take action to encourage their acceptance. It’s really not women’s responsibility to protect them or solve their problems.
Equally, if a woman wants to make herself look more masculine, other women will most likely be fine with her being in their single sex spaces, (as to be honest it’s usually still obvious they’re women). And if they’re not, it’s up to the masculine looking woman to solve her own problem.

@mugglewump yes, people born a boy should be expected to change for swimming among men. Hth.

I don’t know why everyone gets so upset about third spaces. I’ve travelled in Thailand a lot and my Thai friends were killing themselves laughing when I didn’t realise there were 3 toilets and walked into the Ladyboy toilets.

Yes

I think it is a basic human right to be able to use a toilet in a public space or to be able to go swimming at a public baths. Stopping trans people from doing this because a trans man would have to use women's spaces and vice versa is totally wrong.

Women are humans so they should be able to use a toilet in a public space or be able to change for swimming at public baths. Stopping women from doing this because humans born male want to use women's spaces is totally wrong.

Fixed it for you.

Obviously it's a question of expense but I don't see why in principle there shouldn't be individual - or third - spaces provided for people who just want privacy for whatever reason.

There might be many reasons why someone would prefer not to undress in front of other people even of their own sex. Someone recently fitted with a stoma for instance might well prefer privacy while they adjust to it.

So we have:

mens
ladies
third space

was a clearer example needed of how invisible the disabled are ?

If people are talking about an extra space, surely it's a "fourth" space ?

(Don't get me started on how the travel system mummies usurped the hard fight wheelchair users had to get bus spaces that are now overrun with Cybertruck size prams).

Yes, that is exactly what should happen

I’m ok with both as long as women have single sex spaces.