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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Definition of "woman" / implications for people with DSDs

61 replies

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 12:56

Two points, but I didn't want to start two threads as there are already several.

Am I being stupid / obtuse / disingenuous / unreasonable to wonder how the recent judgment could possibly have gone any other way in a sane society? I mean how can the definition of "x" be something that started off as "y" and changed artificially (as opposed to organically) to become "x"? That would be totally illogical, surely?

Additionally, can anyone point me towards any credible sources to explain how this ruling is likely to affect people with DSDs? Understandably, a lot of self-described* intersex people believe that sex is a spectrum, but given the SC disagrees with this, what are the implications?

*When I say self-described I mean that they use this term rather than "DSD" to describe themselves, not that they merely identify as intersex without any medical diagnosis.

OP posts:
Sazzasez · 21/04/2025 17:48

I mean “resolved” as in the early ambiguity later becomes unambiguous, @proximalhumerous

It’s the usual verb for such a situation.

In the case of ambiguity in the appearance of newborns, it resolves all by itself, which is why I phrased it in an active rather than a passive voice.

In 5-ARD (known in Spanish as “testicles at 12”) it is resolved by natural puberty, when the male genitals masculinise.

In CAIS it is resolved when the natural puberty that appeared likely does not occur: an apparently female body does not undergo menarche.

This usually (depending on access to medical facilities) will be confirmed by testing.

No actual medical intervention is required at all, though with 5-ARD it’s as well to keep an eye on undescended testicles, as they’re more prone to cancer.

puffyisgood · 21/04/2025 17:47

the starting point is obviously that anyone with a y chromosome (including xxy people but nearly always of course xy) is male and anyone without (including x0 but nearly always of course xx) is female.

this is a great starting point, far better than eg assuming a coin will land H or T rather than on its side. the arguable exceptions to it are real but easily rare enough to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

dementedpixie · 21/04/2025 17:42

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 17:38

What do you mean by "resolved"? Naturally, with hormones, or surgically?

Resolved as in identified as being actually male or female i would have thought.

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 17:38

Sazzasez · 21/04/2025 17:19

There are a few DSDs which, at birth, may appear ambiguous, eg 5-ARD & CAIS.

The ambiguity is resolved at puberty at the latest.

It’s usually resolves a whole lot sooner, as medical professionals are more aware that a tiny minority of babies have somewhat ambiguous genitals.

Edited

What do you mean by "resolved"? Naturally, with hormones, or surgically?

OP posts:
Sazzasez · 21/04/2025 17:19

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 13:03

This is what I believe, but not what a significant number of people with a DSD believe.

You seem to be speaking with authority - are there definitely no DSDs which are ambiguous?

Edited

There are a few DSDs which, at birth, may appear ambiguous, eg 5-ARD & CAIS.

The ambiguity is resolved at puberty at the latest.

It’s usually resolves a whole lot sooner, as medical professionals are more aware that a tiny minority of babies have somewhat ambiguous genitals.

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 13:18

Thanks @Mia85 - I'll have a look at that.

OP posts:
Mia85 · 21/04/2025 13:15

There have been other cases in other areas of law that have had to define whether partiuclar people with DSDs are male or female. Here is the most famous one (was a marriage valid at a time when any same sex marriage was void). Presumably a similar approach would be used to any relevant Equality Act case. Of course is a person with a DSD was treated differently on the assumption that they were female, but on this test would have been seen as male, they would be able to claim for perception based discrimination anyway. http://www.pfc.org.uk/caselaw/W%20v%20W.pdf

http://www.pfc.org.uk/caselaw/W%20v%20W.pdf

Harassedevictee · 21/04/2025 13:06

Most people with DSD want nothing to do with the debate.

Many DSD are apparently sex specific I.e. they only affect one sex for example XO, XXY and XXXY. Others are more complex but ultimately with testing they can identify if a person is male or female. This is what is recorded on their birth certificate.

There is historically an issue for people with DSD where doctors played god/experimented. Thankfully this should no longer happen.

proximalhumerous · 21/04/2025 13:03

Branleuse · 21/04/2025 12:58

people with DSDs are either male with dsd or female with dsd.
The idea that gets pushed about people who are neither or its genuinely ambiguous, is a fabrication

This is what I believe, but not what a significant number of people with a DSD believe.

You seem to be speaking with authority - are there definitely no DSDs which are ambiguous?

OP posts:
spannasaurus · 21/04/2025 12:59

This ruling has no effect on people with DSDs. They already know what sex they are.

Branleuse · 21/04/2025 12:58

people with DSDs are either male with dsd or female with dsd.
The idea that gets pushed about people who are neither or its genuinely ambiguous, is a fabrication

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