Argument with younger family members

I don’t bring it up any more as try as I might to speak in a calm and adult way, I’ve been told (by people more my age 60+) my views are nasty, damaging and oppressive, and to get with the times. Pretty well the only place I can “speak” about it is here. Quite a lonely place to be.

I’m worried about possible fall out with family members after their threads posted in response to the ruling, one who works in a medical capacity so should know basic biology!

If a boy behaved like this, we'd call it toxic masculinity. Flame away at me but I would call behaviour like you describe toxic femininity. I have friends with some older teenage daughters behaving similarly with the meltdowns on social justice issues. It is manipulative behaviour but we tend to find excuses for young women.

I had this same debate with dh this morning. It ended with me telling him that under no circumstances could he ever envisage what it is like to be a woman.
I agree 100% with JKR and and glad of the legal decision.
What I said to dh was this, fine if you are ok with your DDs sharing intimate spaces with males and those makes go on to harm them, then so be it. Or they harm your mother. However, I’m going to insist they get the fuck away from me, my dd and my mother. They are not welcome near me if my family. Ever.
I then proceeded to explain to dh that this is why the right get voted in. Because they listen to reality and address those issues which matter to 50% of the population.

I had this with my gay DS a few years ago, it was when JKR first stepped in to the debate. I think the reason his generation dislike her so much (he is late 20s now) is that she was an absolute heroine in their eyes. We had Harry Potter everything in our house as my son was a reluctant reader (ASD, Dyslexia) and the HP books revolutionised his view of reading.

He has spent 10 years in academia, Oxbridge, Doctorate, etc and he has known nothing but hatred for her. I think that the whole LGBT+++ gives him a feeling of belonging and a friendship group, and he feels betrayed by her. I still find his views on this whole subject quite incredible as he is a scientist.

Anyway, we had a blazing row and didn’t speak for six months, which broke my heart. I was particularly upset as he referred to me as an old woman who didn’t understand the modern world and I should educate myself or keep quiet. This from a young man who has two sisters and was brought up to value and respect women. My DH brokered a low key reunion.

We are back to normal now, I ignore his social media feed which is pretty much nothing but trans support, with the occasional general rainbow post. I of course don't post anything pro GC, because I have too much at stake to risk it, yes my job, a couple of my younger friends possibly, but most of all of course my son. He must know how I feel, but it is just a no go area, and I keep quiet to keep my son.

His sisters are younger and less concerned, one has a low key, be kind attitude, which is how she is about everything, but no obvious support for TR. The other eye rolls, but keeps quiet at college as she knows how damaging it could be. I have no idea if they all talk about it when together.

How you proceed now depends on what relationship you want with your nieces. I do think it’s a shame your brother didn’t offer any support, but I get it, and it may well not have helped. My DH made it clear at the time of the argument that he holds the same views as me, but the vitriol was all aimed at me. It is as often said on here a men’s rights movement, with us Old Women seen to be hanging on to outdated rights.

Half of the girls are lesbian or bi. Try again! 😆

Homphobic feminists? The rainbow represents all LGBTQ people not just trans people

Good on you for having the argument, despite the unpleasantness. I’ve had a few of these and they left me reeling for days, sometimes weeks. What I noticed though, was that often, the silent ‘bystanders’, who listened but didn’t join in, later approached me to ask more questions about my views. One friend, who had never considered the issue before listening to me and another friend have quite a heated argument, has become a very vocal GC activist. So take heart. These young ones maybe lost to the cult, at least until they are confronted in real life with a situation in which gender ideology hurts them because they are women. It may never, but if it does, they may one day return to you about this. In any case, being willing to speak for the ‘other side’ showed everyone in the room that there is a real debate to be had here and questions to be asked, and that good people such as you, are asking them. That’s a big deal and you should be proud of that.

I won't discuss except here.
My answer to anyone's outrage or celebrations about the SC statement is "yes,it is great the law is clarified and now we all know where we are with the law. And i am very glad [this is the truth] that it has been clearly stated that trans people have still got protections under 2 protected characteristics"

And that is it.

In reality, i believe that, but i am outraged and upset at the protests and the constant whining about trans-rights. Nothing has changed except that the Stonewall version of the law is wrong.

(also: assuming that they could have also intervened like Sex Matters and the Lesbian group, why didn't Stonewall intervene? is it because they don't / won't / can't accept their version of the law is incorrect?)

I really value talking about societal issues and it's difficult if you feel you have to dodge multiple relevant subjects. I really try be open to opposing views but I find people can get very angry to frothing at the mouth and I realise I have to stop and change the subject. I also feel I'm judged harshly by friends if I don't necessary agree with their world views.

It's a side note but I feel like this about the subject of suicide. If society spoke about it, accepted it, stop shitting themself at hearing the mere word, understood people feel desperate and some actually will want to do this - let people talk about it and I believe you'd actually help some people and reduce some of the hopelessness that leads to people ending it. ( Probably not lunchtime family chat topic with kids but.. 🤷‍♀️😊)

Oh yes. I remember years back the Autism Support charity steering us to affirming my daughter's need to change gender. Daughter at the time was self harming and we were at our lowest point fearing she may take her own life. But i just knew this wasn't the answer and we resisted. Had she been in care or in a family home with different circumstances I am sure she would have become trans. If someone had said at 15/16 yes we can take your uterus and remove your breasts she would have gone along with it. At least now she can accept her female sex. She dresses in what I would call an androgynous style which is absolutely fine. She has online friends who have transitioned socially and medically with nearly all being female to male and so is fiercely protective of this community. She describes her self as ARORACE she/her (not that she has told us but I've seen it on her YouTube channel).

Just let me say it's not all down to age.
I'm 21 and I completely agree with the ruling!

💯

And for the children who are not in the care system it’s been crucial getting the parents to buy in through fear.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom that's a very helpful overview of information to save on my phone!

Perhaps the problems stemming from porn ought to make young women wonder if there is some connection between gender ideology and porn aimed at men, especially sissy, trans and anime genderqueer porn that produces these Andrea Long Chu type justifications of trans experience as fundamentally rooted in “kink” and pornography.

Funny that the only systematic feminist discipline of critical thought on porn comes from older, “second wave” feminism that these young women are being encouraged to dismiss.

It’s almost like it’s designed that way, isn’t it? That the kind of ideology that produces violent porn, also encourages young people to decry and reject the very movement that provided tools to give a critical distance on porn, patriarchy and the sexual oppression of women.

I have no compunction in saying that young women in particular are being had - being fleeced and deceived - by a brand of pseudo-progressivism that is not only intellectually incoherent, but is actively fraudulent and works against their own interests. I don’t mind telling them that, either. What men’s traditions encourage men to disavow older men and their male predecessors? They don’t. That’s what patriarchy is - adherence to the father, literal or metaphorical.

Yet young women have been hoodwinked into a pretend form of rights activism that encourages them to trash their own female and feminist tradition and (literal) mothers and (metaphorical) forebears. That’s anti-feminist in itself. I’ve found that gently pointing this out to young women often starts them thinking and sows productive seeds. Whose interest is it, in getting them to reject a female feminist tradition…?

Thisn thread highlights why transactivists have been so desperate to influence children in schools & the young in universities. So much of their "interest" has been self serving with the most vulnerable children being targeted first. Children in care were one of the first groups. Children in hospitals - imagine telling the most physically and mentally unwell children that their bodies are wrong but a sex change will fix them? Even the youngest of children in primary schools have been gaslit by this nonsense - far too young to have the intellectual understanding to critique what's told to them by supposedly responsible adults.

This is why an ideology lacking in all moral and intellectual credibility has been swallowed hook line and sinker by so many children and young people with limited life experiences to evaluate what they've been told. Add to that the climate of intimidation and bullying that's used to enforce this and it's not surprising we're seeing a generational divide. A student at Sussex university seeing Kathleen Stock be bullied out of there is unlikely to speak up against TWAW or men in women's sport.

So many adults are culpable for their behaviour in failing to challenge this gaslighting and intimidation of the young.

Ah right, just dismiss everything with no evidence. You think a bunch of feminist 14-year-old girls at a girls’ school are into Andrew Tate, do you?

And if you like your labels, they are gen Alpha not gen Z (who are the very ones who are most into gender ideology).

Adult women allowed their own opinions - yes. Of course.

Living in a different time - yes.

Different problems? Yes and no. Male violence and sexual abuse aren't new. The internet as a tool which men can use to abuse, yes, and we are nowhere near coming to grips with it.

Violent porn ubiquitous and normalised, yes. Although I would argue that surely this should have been a stark education for young women about the darker nature of desire in some men, and made them fight harder for female only spaces. It's hard to square the circle of knowing that men are hiding cameras in changing rooms and toilets with the belief that men pretending to be women need to be in female changing rooms for their own safety and wellbeing whilst at the same time being sure that men who are honest about their sex should be kept out because some men are a danger to women and it's impossible to tell which ones until after the fact.

Gay men being unfairly accused of being paedophiles if they want to be in roles where they have access to children - again, yes, although this belief took hold at a time when society had just been forced to look at the sex abuse scandals involving scout masters, priests, school masters at boys boarding schools, and men running children's homes. The boys were often disbelieved because they were boys. It didn't come from nowhere. We always have to exercise caution when it comes to vulnerable children. Decent adults are aware of this and accept it.

Agree that the topic is difficult to discuss. What is interesting is why it's so difficult, because we are all generally agreed on what the problem is.

Oh no - too late to edit the misspelling of 'practise'!
I have a reputation to keep up over in Pedantry Corner in the Bluestocking, you know.

Maybe if I don't draw attention to it nobody will notice..🤔

More tea, anyone? Can I press anyone to a Tunnocks Teacake?

@CandidLurker there are a few topics where you are best advised to keep your own counsel!!

Probably because Gen Z is more into the likes of Andrew Tate who tends to hate on everything LGBTQ.

Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, they'll just knock over the pieces, poop on the board, and strut around like they won.

I've had it twice in 10 days. First time with 2 good friends and I was stuck in a car with them exclaiming how awful it was.

Second time was at a Women's meeting and I was in a group with a transwoman and one of the women was expressing her solitary and how amazing stonewall was.

Both times I keep my mouth tightly closed whilst rolling my eyes. There are some people you cannot explain the truth to, they just don't want to hear it.

Frustrating but it will change.

I won’t deflect from the thread by asking for it Lucy but another time I would be interested to hear what specific nuance I’ve missed that would change the conversation.

(I’m not really the hero worshiping type, but I do think it’s reasonable to admire a person who has given millions upon millions to support poor and vulnerable women and children as well as funding medical research)

Sometimes it’s a good idea for families to avoid controversial discussions but I always think it’s sad if people are unable to have a non aggressive, non emotional debate about important topics.

The rule in our house is “make your case with logic and reason not with the volume of your voice and nasty slurs”.

They can disagree all they like.

But their point of view is fundamentally misogynistic and anti democratic.

Nobody should let them get away with pretending that their views are in any way progressive.