Transmen

Men can decide for themselves who is welcome into their spaces.

No. We want men to stay out of women's spaces. Men can decide for themselves who is writing into their spaces.

I think this depends on how the law affects toilets.

IANAL but I don't think it's specifically illegal to use an opposite sex toilet - usually I think the worst that would happen would be that you would be told 'sorry this is the men's' and asked to leave.

It is legal to exclude somebody from a toilet on the basis of sex, but if somebody looked indistinguishably male would this happen?

Could we just have individual toilets that anyone can use.
Should we not change a toilet to suit the people?

Those men's bathrooms are going to be pretty crowded with the MTF and FTM transpeople in them.

Women could always use the Mens I thought? Back when I was young we would all use the Mens when the queue for the one Women's toilet got too big. Luckily women's toilets became more plentiful when they got built.

Transmen won't have periods so that cuts out a lot of the need I would have thought.

It's because it's about several different things.

It's about creating a safe/dignified space for women, and also the perception that the space is safe.

Transmen don't make washroom unsafe. But they could, if they are actually indistinguishable from men visually, make it look like it's not. (Note: most are not, they look like transmen, not men.)

Basically, we as a society have created a situation where theoretically some might not fit clearly into either provision. In practice they'd probably pass in the men's, but with the caveat that some other men might feel violated if they did know.

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

It’s not about “presenting male” it’s about women who make such significant cosmetic changes to their bodies with hormones and surgeries that nobody can tell anymore that they are female. This won’t apply to most masculine presenting females. It will be a small minority who probably would rather pee in a bush than use the ladies anyway.

Wow... I am not going to lie... this really makes things strange..

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

Born male but presenting female... need to use the male toilets..

This doesn't make any sense to me... neither does Maya Forstater's comment.

In my experience a lot of men do not want women to come into their toilets as a regular thing. They might not be afraid as such, but they do feel it's an invasion of privacy. They might also feel that it puts them in a vulnerable position in terms of being accused of inappropriate behaviour.

There are also religious men who aren't allowed to share mixed sex toilets, something many people seem to understand applies to some women - it's not just women, the same applies to males.

That being said, obviously a very well passing TM is unlikely to be rumbled in the men's, and I suspect no one would make a fuss even if they suspected. In an ideal world such people should be able to use the women's but clearly that would raise questions in some circumstances.

I would also say, that this is a human created problem, caused by doing experimental and unevidenced treatments without considering the problematic social consequences.

We do. And no one has said on any post they want trans men not to use them. I know some already do use them because male toilets can be intimidating for them.

PriOn1:
Funnily enough, MtF transitioners understand what women feel in a way that men who claim they are women never can and never will.

I don't understand this sentence.

as has been discussed on here and elsewhere about a zillion times, pretty much none of the arguments about men in women's spaces apply the other way round, e.g.

(a) 'trans men' are generally welcome to chance their arm in men's sports, though they'll generally get pulverised;

(b) no trans man of sound mind would, surely, ever want to be anywhere near a men's prison, unless they have a death wish or are particularly fond of being raped; and

(c) women, whether they choose to cross dress or not, are generally not unwelcome in men's toilets, eg if there's a huge queue for the ladies.

It's also interesting that after being told no one can tell the difference between a trans woman and a female it's now assumed that no trans woman will be able to pass.

That has always been a complicated question.

I suspect some men have believed they passed as women on the grounds that they had never been challenged in single sex spaces. Those men may now be in for a shock, as women start to feel emboldened to speak out, now it has been clarified that single sex means single sex and those men don’t have the right to be there, as they had claimed.

More FtM transitioners pass and that is because testosterone stimulates very specific and distinctive changes to the body, which cannot be undone by taking oestrogen. For that reason, few men who have gone through male puberty will ever pass, even on first glance and certainly not with longer contact.

Medical transition has opened up societal complications with regard to single sex spaces. We (society, not women) need to work out how to accommodate those people who have taken this path, as well as those who started then changed their minds. This needs to consider both those who have transitioned and those who have not, to ensure rights are balanced fairly.

This is something that has never been done. Medics told their male patients to use women’s spaces and never once considered whether this would affect women. There is now a whole conversation that needs to start and “no debate” needs to be put in the bin, alongside all the hyperbole about existence, before that can happen.

And I guess the same will apply to TW who genuinely pass (no Eddie Izzard this does not apply to you)

A person who genuinely passes is unlikely to be challenged because nobody will know.

Trans men do not affect others in the way trans women can. Accepting and allowing them to use male toilets is very different from someone born male using women's toilets.

It's as if the people who kept shouting about genital inspections think they really will exist.

In reality trans people who pass well will in practice probably go on using public toilets without much difficulty.

If you’d bothered to come and join in women’s discussions on this at an earlier stage, or had had the self-respect to go back and read some threads before jumping in with incorrect assumptions about what many of us think, you would know that there are many women here who say they are perfectly happy for FtM transitioners to use women’s spaces.

Further, there are some of us, as well as some FtM transitioners, who acknowledge that testosterone has masculinised some women to the point where their presence would cause some women distress. It had generally been said that, in those circumstances, in order to alleviate women’s distress, those transitioners might choose either to use male spaces or find alternative spaces. Funnily enough, MtF transitioners understand what women feel in a way that men who claim they are women never can and never will.

It did come as something of a surprise to me that the judges considering this case understood and had taken on board this matter, to the point where they agreed with the latter group, to an extent, but that only goes to show how thoroughly they have read around and understand what they were rulling on.

So as with everything, there are a mixture of considered opinions on this point, as with most. The consequences of our actions come as no surprise to us and we are not in the least hypocritical in discussing this matter, now the legal position has been clarified.

Who judges if someone passes?

I don’t mind if obvious trans men use the ladies (obviously female but attempting to look masculine). But where a woman has gone to such lengths to masculinise themselves that nobody can distinguish between them and a man this will obviously cause issues. Luckily the SC has foreseen this issue and made it clear that these women can be excluded. So the only real consequences will be for very masculine looking trans men.

Are you talking about the specific posters in this thread?

There have been quite a lot of discussions on this with differing views from different people (as there are with any MN discussion).

The ruling was very clear that transmen who ‘pass’ can be excluded from women’s facilities legally and would have to use unisex spaces if not comfortable using the men’s facilities.

Choices have consequences. I don’t have a problem with masculine presenting women in women’s spaces but I can’t consent on others’ behalf. If the transman is perceived as male when using women’s spaces that can go against the rights of other women to feel safe and private way from men.

So, can I just clarify.
It was not about using the space of the gender you were born with.
It was whether or not you can 'pass'?

Transmen can quite easily use the male toilets, they tend to pass as men or at least teenage boys quite quickly. On top of that most transmen are sensitive to how their presence affects women in female spaces and will avoid these situations