Transmen

This isn’t something that we as women need to provide the solution for. Politicians and lawmakers should be responsible for sorting out the mess.

In an ideal world, and if there were any true justice, organisations like Stonewall that have deliberately confused what the law said and created an industry out of selling inaccurate DEI training packages and providing bullshit policy guidance to businesses and public bodies would be held financially liable for their actions. But sadly they will just cash in on this to sell more bullshit to captured organisations.

It is about protecting women’s sex based rights. If a woman has altered her appearance so drastically that she is indistinguishable visually from men then she might has some problems to navigate.

Nope. Some women who have taken wrong sex hormones and undergone extreme surgeries might have to face natural consequences of their actions. Their actions must not be used as emotional blackmail in a puerile attempt at a gotcha to punish pesky women for wanting to protect our sex based rights. Remember the requirements for single sex spaces involves more than just toilets. A lot of transmen are clearly female though so their presence in women’s toilets won’t be an issue

No. Not the accessible.

I think a lawyer with specialist knowledge would need to answer to know for certain, but I think it would be breaking the equality law as outlined in the ruling. Men are as entitled to single sex spaces as women.

It’s all very well Maya saying ‘well just provide third spaces’, but that just isn’t going to be possible for lots of service providers – for example a restaurant. Of course a passing transman could use the men’s toilet and nobody might be any wiser. But if you are a transman and want to stick to the letter of the law you could find yourself without an option and I’m afraid to me that just doesn’t seem fair.

apart from the fact that the TRAs have suddenly remembered that trans men exist, i find it hard to care.

It is a bit FAFO and they are now in the FO phase. Having said that: I am still of the opinion that they use the ladies, unless they are really really manly. Then the men can budge up, for all i care.

It’s all very well Maya saying ‘well just provide third spaces’, but that just isn’t going to be possible for lots of service providers – for example a restaurant.

It’s not women’s rights campaigners’ job to come up with the solution for the trans population or for venues.

Tiny venues like restaurants would probably be best off having a few individual toilets so that only one person is in there at a time.

I don’t personally think it would be fair to do away with men’s toilets, as it will indirectly discriminate against men who aren’t comfortable peeing in front of women, but again, this isn’t women’s problem to solve.

In the same way that the EA doesn’t specify the logistics of how venues should actually organise their toilets, I don’t think anyone is going to be able to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution to the issue of how trans people should be accommodated. The law is now clear, and so it’s up to individual venues to work out how they can ensure everyone is accommodated.

Let's keep aiming for a society where male people use men's toilets, female people use women's, no-one pretends they're the opposite sex for these situations, and no-one is violent to anyone in the toilets.

Yes it seems like a pipe dream, particularly the last bit, but there are some things that men need to sort out for themselves because they affect everyone else.

tbh, i think any woman who deliberately alters her appearance to make herself look manly should be prepared to be challenged if they use the ladies.

And a challenge need not be aggressive, just a gentle "this is the ladies" and a smile.

I've redirected a couple of men in the past when the signage hasn't been clear (and they've been a bit drunk) and it doesn't need to presage hand-to-hand combat

Yes, I can see your point @kay2000 but where third spaces aren't available, I don't really want to see women using the mens toilet from a purely safeguarding perspective, its not a good idea.

I was driving along a village road in Nottinghamshire recently and two men were walking along the verge. I immediately clocked one as a woman, despite her beard and clothing. She was too small, too curvy and sadly walking with a stick, as so many do due to the damage wrecked by testosterone. I said to my hubby did you see them, and he said yes one was a transman weren’t they. And this was in a 10 second space as we drove past. Now, being involved in the GC movement means we know what to look for but I’m guessing the general public, maybe a lady of 80, wouldn’t be able to tell and might be quite frightened by one in the Ladies. So it’s fine for us to say, yes they’re welcome in the ladies, but in reality, should they be?

I’m not threatened by a woman on testosterone which has given her a beard and a chunk of her arm sewn onto her genitalia area, she can’t rape me. However I am concerned by the anger that testosterone sometimes gives them. I think ultimately we’ll end up with places having a single toilet, like the disabled loo (but NOT the disabled one like many people keep suggesting, that’s for disabled people) for anyone. And trans identifying women could use that but we know a lot of trans identifying men don’t want that, they want to occupy the ladies. Even when offered a third space, like Dr Upton, who refused it and insisted on his right to use the female changing room.

An ideal toilet set up is in my local cinema. They have a corridor of individual cubicles with a loo and sink in each, labelled male or female so women don’t have to sit in the mess of the previous male occupant, but it would be easy to make a couple of these gender neutral.

The LGBT charities and campaign groups (who have decided they believe in trans ideology) are best placed to work out if self-labelled (i.e. not based on sex) groups may benefit from third space facilities for loos, wards etc.
It isn't up to women to be asked to work this out as we have facilities based on sex, which we are happy are single-sex.
It's not possible for a women to become a man so women dressed however they like, with or without facial hair, can use women's facilities. If they're not comfortable, they can look for third options.
A woman with a beard isn't scary like a man in any outfit pretending to be a woman in women's facilities.

"well i, for one, am fine with trans men using the ladies.
There is a caveat - they need to be prepared to be challenged on that. Because it is their modifications to their body (beards for eg) that makes them not look like most women.
Frankly? Most trans men, IME, don't actually pass"

I agree with this @Brefugee There's a whole generation of young adults who've been damaged by this movement and will need us to accommodate them where third spaces aren't available.

I also agree that transmen rarely pass on second glance. People passing online is one thing, real life quite another.

@PriOn1 "I suspect some men have believed they passed as women on the grounds that they had never been challenged in single sex spaces."
I think this is happening in the reverse, as well.
I don't think there are many, if any, stealth passing trans men. Sexual assault of trans men is sadly incredibly common.
Trans men are largely invisible politically, to the trans women that are the driving force of trans rights activism. Wheeled out when a non-threatening visage is needed - precisely because trans men are so obviously not male.
I think this myth of the passing trans men only makes these vulnerable women more vulnerable.

Reading the judgement, it seems that we can exclude transmen, as well as all biological men from our toilets.

Contrary to a lot of posters, I do think a lot of men don't want women in their toilets, for reasons @TempestTost has articulated better than I can.

As sex re-assignment is also a protected characteristic would this mean employers for e.g. would need to provide a gender neutral space as I'm assuming they couldn't say 'oh sorry you can't us either toilet. Hard cheese.'

There are a lot of transmen in particular who I find to be be quite vulnerable and struggle with social interactions and insight, who frankly I think should never have been allowed to transition, it's made them much more fragile.

I think the same applies to many trans-identifying men, particularly the younger ones. It certainly does to those I know personally. Socially awkward, emotionally fragile, unconfident young men - actually very sweet, good-natured young men - and really no different after transitioning. The only difference is that their good-nature has disappeared they now express entitlement. Their confidence is all built upon the expectation that they can now have what they didn't know they wanted.

well i, for one, am fine with trans men using the ladies.

There is a caveat - they need to be prepared to be challenged on that. Because it is their modifications to their body (beards for eg) that makes them not look like most women.

Frankly? Most trans men, IME, don't actually pass.

Yeah, I have to say though, I feel for organizations on this.

Lots of businesses and venues are small and run on very thin margins, they have a men's and women's toilet, and have probably tried to squeeze in an accessible one too, which is not always easy as they require good clearances. And they need these spaces but there is no question they are expensive.

And now they are supposed to spend a few thousand dollars and square footage to add another washroom space? For what is a situation that has no medical support for it as a treatment?

I would say both of those are true. My statement wasn't really a moral claim, it was just an observation. We have said this is the appropriate treatment for certain problems, and that treatment means some people may find some social situations awkward to navigate. There really isn't a great option for a female person who has taken steps to really appear to be a man. They still have many of the vulnerabilities of women, but will no longer easily fit in with groups of women. Rather like the situation with Freddy and the walking club.

Now, if these individuals had been counselled properly, they would I hope have spent some time thinking about the potential consequences of choices like this. What's really unfortunate is that quite a few people have been led to believe that there would not be trade offs and that society has moral and legal obligations that it, in fact, does not. There are a lot of transmen in particular who I find to be be quite vulnerable and struggle with social interactions and insight, who frankly I think should never have been allowed to transition, it's made them much more fragile.

Born female but presenting male... need to use the male toilets..

The SC judgment did not state that biological females presenting as male should use the single-sex men’s toilets - it said that there are circumstances in which they could be legitimately excluded from women-only spaces (para 221).

Obviously, if a transmen passes, they would likely just go in the men’s anyway, but organisations would need to consider providing a third space for other transmen in order not to discriminate against them by not providing an appropriate space for them.

Yes we NEED women's toilets but there isn't an equivalent need for men's.
Let me explain. I'm not referring to the fact that men can (and do) pee in public. I'm referring to the fact that men do not need their own spaces to avoid or get away from us. In fact I'm sure that men only have toilets because WE don't want to see them using them!
(Having been to France, I know that we can't always avoid seeing them anyway.)
Therefore all male toilets could and should be made all-gender.
If we don't want to see them using urinals (& most of us don't!) we can avoid them, but (a) tm and tw can use them and, more important personally, (b) we CAN use them if and when necessary.
Sorted!

Basically, we as a society have created a situation where theoretically some might not fit clearly into either provision.

Have we? Or have we created a situation where some people are expected to take responsibility for other people's choices?

I think there's a parallel with facial tattoos and body modding. If you choose to make yourself look like you don't fit, why do you expect others to fit around you?