Trans women are still women 2nd thread

I don’t believe they are defining of your sex, or even determined by it.

I think, without going all Shania Twain, that you can feel like a woman. You can observe and live in the world with a female outlook, which can and often is different to the male lens.

I also believe that you can therefore feel that you are living in the wrong body, because you are looking through the wrong lens if you will.

I’ve always, maybe wrongly because I’m not trans, assumed that being trans felt like being trapped in the wrong body. Your sex and biology was telling you that you were male, but your brain and emotions were telling you otherwise. That must be horrendous. Locked in a body you’re not comfortable and don’t feel at home in.

I’m not big on the “single sex spaces” argument anyway, personally not interested in it though I have obviously seen and recognise that others are.

But, with no idea on how you’d police it, if someone feels the way I’ve just described above and they want to transition their gender identity to that of a female - I’m cool with letting them.

That doesn’t change biology, scientific fact, but I don’t see any value in making people feel worse.

That’s so minimising.

There are things we see in girls that we don’t see in little boys, for example. If you see them in your little boy, he may well be trans - and I think it’s a shame for parents to take issue with that, or shame them for that when they’re older.

I’m actually unsure how it can or will be policed at all tbh. In either the view that I have, because I don’t know how someone identifies, or yours because you may not always know someone’s biology.

Say for example a FTM trans person is in the bathroom, and on first glance you can’t tell that their birth sex was female. They’re tall, they have facial hair, testosterone has made them appear stronger.

I know people have answered this and said that FTM trans people don’t make us unsafe because they’re not men, and biological women are welcome etc.

But genuinely - will you ask? Would you stop someone in the toilets or changing room and question their sex, ask for evidence?

I’ve got absolutely no idea because I have never, and will never, be in prison. That’s not even something I’m happy to accept is a luxury viewpoint.

I am far more sympathetic to those who have cultural beliefs, or are victims of DV and feel unsafe around men generally.

I just feel that there has to be an outcome that works for everyone. Some people may not be happy/able to accept that TWAW, but they are people, and I think feelings on all sides should be taken into account.

So are you saying that gender is based on stereotypes and therefore we are now saying that if people do not meet the stereotypes they must be the other gender?

Wow I reckon I could be a man, that's serious news to me and to my kids that I birthed.

I mean it's all just so regressive and this totally and utterly ignores the fact that for some men it's nothing more than a fetish.

Actually if you give a female child puberty blockers then cross sex hormones they will end up being shorter than if they'd gone through normal female puberty. A post-pubertal human cannot gain height without drastic orthopaedic surgery as the growth plates in limb bones fuse at the end of puberty. So your hypothetical transman will most likely still be of below average height compared to other males, and will still be easily identified as female due to their female pelvis determining the way they walk.

TLDR - the person you are describing is vanishingly unlikely to ever exist.

I’ve got absolutely no idea because I have never, and will never, be in prison. That’s not even something I’m happy to accept is a luxury viewpoint.

I am far more sympathetic to those who have cultural beliefs, or are victims of DV and feel unsafe around men generally.

I just feel that there has to be an outcome that works for everyone. Some people may not be happy/able to accept that TWAW, but they are people, and I think feelings on all sides should be taken into account.

I’m actually unsure how it can or will be policed at all tbh. In either the view that I have, because I don’t know how someone identifies, or yours because you may not always know someone’s biology.

Say for example a FTM trans person is in the bathroom, and on first glance you can’t tell that their birth sex was female. They’re tall, they have facial hair, testosterone has made them appear stronger.

I know people have answered this and said that FTM trans people don’t make us unsafe because they’re not men, and biological women are welcome etc.

But genuinely - will you ask? Would you stop someone in the toilets or changing room and question their sex, ask for evidence?

I’m actually unsure how it can or will be policed at all tbh. In either the view that I have, because I don’t know how someone identifies, or yours because you may not always know someone’s biology.

Say for example a FTM trans person is in the bathroom, and on first glance you can’t tell that their birth sex was female. They’re tall, they have facial hair, testosterone has made them appear stronger.

I know people have answered this and said that FTM trans people don’t make us unsafe because they’re not men, and biological women are welcome etc.

But genuinely - will you ask? Would you stop someone in the toilets or changing room and question their sex, ask for evidence?

Genuinely, it was a question.

We will have to, and I personally was more comfortable with the alternative.

Evidently you weren’t, and that’s fine - but are you going to ask those trans men what’s in their pants.

Are we back to if women won't let men in their spaces then they're going to have to share with transmen (who are all 6ft and passing according to some posters on an earlier thread)

Give these men a bag of blood between their legs with pain for one week out of every four. The idea of being a woman will fade fast. Men aren’t women. Fact.

You cannot feel like a woman, because 'woman' isn't a feeling. It's a biological fact. It's like saying you feel like a brown eyed person, what do brown eyed people feel like?

No man can feel like a woman. He can only feel like what he imagines a woman to be. No one is in the wrong body, what do you think it is that's in the body? A soul ? That's a religious belief. You are your body. Many if not most adolescents feel 'wrong' in their body or wish it was otherwise, at some point don't they? That's normal. Plenty of older people too for that matter. Discomfort with your body or feeling it doesn't represent how you want to be is pretty normal. It doesn't mean you're in the wrong body. Plus, many of those who ID as trans do not have gender dysphoria. They have no problems with their body and no intention to change it.

I'm pleased you have the privilege not to care.about single sex spaces. For some women they are the only way to be able to participate in society. Respectfully, admission to being female and female spaces isn't yours to give away to men you've decided deserve it because they want it. And as you rightly note, there is no way to police which men feel as you describe, and which do not.

Finally, no one is trying to make anyone feel worse. Though some of the people who are distressed to find out that women are actual full humans with rights, had no interest at all in how we felt, when they took our stuff without asking. In fact, some of them gloated about it and told us to 'enjoy ur erasure'. So I'm not losing any sleep about them to be honest.

Do you not think that putting male rapists in female Prisons made the women prisoners feel worse

I don’t believe they are defining of your sex, or even determined by it.

I think, without going all Shania Twain, that you can feel like a woman. You can observe and live in the world with a female outlook, which can and often is different to the male lens.

I also believe that you can therefore feel that you are living in the wrong body, because you are looking through the wrong lens if you will.

I’ve always, maybe wrongly because I’m not trans, assumed that being trans felt like being trapped in the wrong body. Your sex and biology was telling you that you were male, but your brain and emotions were telling you otherwise. That must be horrendous. Locked in a body you’re not comfortable and don’t feel at home in.

I’m not big on the “single sex spaces” argument anyway, personally not interested in it though I have obviously seen and recognise that others are.

But, with no idea on how you’d police it, if someone feels the way I’ve just described above and they want to transition their gender identity to that of a female - I’m cool with letting them.

That doesn’t change biology, scientific fact, but I don’t see any value in making people feel worse.

I don’t believe they are defining of your sex, or even determined by it.

I think, without going all Shania Twain, that you can feel like a woman. You can observe and live in the world with a female outlook, which can and often is different to the male lens.

I also believe that you can therefore feel that you are living in the wrong body, because you are looking through the wrong lens if you will.

I’ve always, maybe wrongly because I’m not trans, assumed that being trans felt like being trapped in the wrong body. Your sex and biology was telling you that you were male, but your brain and emotions were telling you otherwise. That must be horrendous. Locked in a body you’re not comfortable and don’t feel at home in.

I’m not big on the “single sex spaces” argument anyway, personally not interested in it though I have obviously seen and recognise that others are.

But, with no idea on how you’d police it, if someone feels the way I’ve just described above and they want to transition their gender identity to that of a female - I’m cool with letting them.

That doesn’t change biology, scientific fact, but I don’t see any value in making people feel worse.

Gender constructs are real, and if you happen to like some of the ones that are stereotyped to your sex no issues. But they're not defining of your sex. Having xx chromosomes doesn't make you like cooking, and liking cooking doesn't make you a girl. That's regressive and damages all of us because absolutely no one 100% fits into the stereotypes for their sex.

No one rejects gender just for the sake of arguing about transpeople, do you actually think that? None of us went looking for this fight. We were very happy for there to be gender non conforming people, because feminists don't subscribe to gender stereotypes. But gender ideology completely relies on gender stereotypes - that if you like football and cars it makes you male, and if you like dolls and dresses it makes you female. That's how we ended up here, with 'woman' being changed from meaning 'an adult human females with any personality' to 'an adult human of either sex who likes girly stuff'.

No I disagree transwomen are wearing clothes. As women, men, non binary and trans men wear clothes. It’s not a costume it’s just clothing. You can call trans women men if you want to be pedantic because genetically they are born male. But why not just call them trans women?

Why have a dog and bark yourself 🤷🏻‍♀️

The overall point that I was making is that gender constructs are real, and some people actually see areas of that as a benefit, and don’t reject gender ideology for the sake of the trans debate.

I was rejecting gender ideology before there even was a trans debate, for the sake of truth logic and social justice.

The trans debate is very recent, whereas being gender critical, i.e. critical of gender stereotyping, has being going on for centuries.

Well it's this or clean out the fishtank (or is that a blue job?) so I'll try again.

Men = bad No. Many men= delightful. Some men= dangerous . No way to tell by looking which is which so all stay out to keep women safe

Gender stereotypes = not real No. Gender stereotypes exist, but don't have to be lived down to. Liking dinosaurs doesn't make you male, it makes you a person who likes dinosaurs. Ditto make-up, dresses, glitter etc.

NHS = even more bad No. NHS= good, but not infallible

Why have a dog and bark yourself 🤷🏻‍♀️

The overall point that I was making is that gender constructs are real, and some people actually see areas of that as a benefit, and don’t reject gender ideology for the sake of the trans debate.