Trans women are still women 2nd thread

They removed it because it’s completely obsolete. Those men don’t identify as “cross dressers” any more, that’s an old fashioned term. Guess what they do identify as?

That’s a little bit like you not being able to remove consent on my behalf though, isn’t it?

And that’s your prerogative. I have my own thoughts about women who don’t respect other women’s perfectly reasonable boundaries around men. Women who have often been victims of male violence. Women’s feelings matter too, not just those of your male friends.

Stonewall actually removed cross dressing from that umbrella definition in July 2024.

Thank fuck for that.

But that doesn't stop cross dressers from claiming to be trans.

How would I tell the difference?

“Welcomed by some” is rather the point though. Unless Alice has the consent of every woman in the ladies and every woman who is about to enter then you do not have consent. You cannot consent on my behalf just because you are a woman and like Alice and think that he’s harmless. Alice is still a man even if he has been “socialised as one” whatever that means.

All this nonsense about transwomen used to have consent to be in the women’s toilets is just nonsense. No one has ever asked me if I consented. Well I don’t, never have and never will. I don’t want men in women only spaces regardless of how they identify, dress or their level of niceness.

I just think that it’s if I’m honest, silly, that had I said “I was chatting to a female friend” you’d have still disagreed, but probably wouldn’t have just dismissed it outright in the same way.

Honestly these last few days, it would be great if Mumsnet had a 🙄 reaction button.

I, as a biological female, so presumably someone who’s opinion does count - think it’s harsh, unfair, unkind to tell people like the “lovely trans friend” that last week you were welcomed by some and now you’re not by anyone because some people didn’t like it.

Omg - that’s sick.

It’s quite reasonable to not care what men think about women’s spaces, in the same way as I don’t expect to be pronouncing on whether the guide dog training programme should be cut back. I’m not blind, it doesn’t affect me. It does affect others who are. When women say they want a single sex space, it doesn’t mean “no men except for your lovely trans friend”, just like it doesn’t mean “no men except for my lovely DP”.

Did you read the last paragraph or?

The point, was that the “men in dress” brigade can recognise that there’s a difference between “men in dresses” and trans people.

I should however have remembered that because that specific conversation was with a man, it wouldn’t count because we only care about women’s input. My bad!

I’m sure you think the musings of your partner are terribly fascinating, but it’s sweet that you think others should care what some random man reckons about women’s rights. My DP disagrees, how is that relevant to anything?

There are some fetishists who do this, in my deep dives trying to understand the trans activists I’ve seen pages where AGPs ask for collected menstrual blood so they can smear it on their inner thighs and do bathroom photoshoots. It’s quite disturbing on several levels

Why can’t men have TW in their spaces? These TW are men so have the right to use men only spaces. It might help men discuss and understand some of their fellows.

I had a conversation literally yesterday with my partner, about the toilet debate.

FWIW he actually would care more than me about a male in a female bathroom, because of the safety issues that people so regularly bring up. My sort of cavalier attitude to it confuses him.

He said “big men in dresses with beards shouldn’t be there, if I put a dress on that doesn’t mean I should be in your changing room.”

I asked him “what about Alice?” An actual MTF trans person we know. Alice, should be in the women’s, because that’s where she’s always gone and she’d be out of place in the men’s. Alice is a woman, we all recognise her as a woman, she’s socialised as one, she would be in the women’s.

You’re welcome to say that men’s views don’t matter here.

But what I’m pointing out is that “men in dresses” that some people think of when they think of trans people - are not the Alice’s of the world. And I personally don’t feel comfortable telling someone who has always at least felt welcome, as far as I’m concerned was welcome, that they’re not now, and they should get out.

The thing that 'they have always used our spaces' is a well-worn trope that is mainly false. Most TW didn't use these spaces. And, we had the right to kick them out and call the police. We lost that right. The argument that 'they have always used our spaces' simply says because some males knowingly violated those spaces and trashed our boundaries, trespassing where they shouldn't have, therefore we are being 'mean' by putting our foot down now.

Males can "live their lives peacefully" without using female spaces. They don't need to use female spaces to live their lives peacefully. It's not an either/or proposition.

Stonewall actually removed cross dressing from that umbrella definition in July 2024.

I found that on “sexmatters,” which I’m assuming is a website that actually supports the GC folk.

So Stonewall actually don’t including cross dressing under their definition of trans. You’d think you’d know that!

You’d have to ask Eddie Izzard.

There’s a difference between dressing as a woman and believing you are one.

“A crossdresser is someone who enjoys wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite gender, while a transgender person's gender identity differs from their assigned sex at birth. A crossdresser may be cisgender (their gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth) or transgender, but transgender individuals have a gender identity that differs from their assigned sex.”

I hope this helps. It would be cool if you could bring less drama to 8am, tbh 😂.

There’s a difference between cross dressers and TW, they’re not the same and they don’t have the same motivation. Like you rightly point out.

What on EARTH is the difference?

And why does Eddie Izzard say he is Trans?

Why does Stonewall include cross dressing under the trans umbrella?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about and now are starting to appear transphobic.

If that was aimed at me, again 😂

People should have the jobs they are suitable for, and qualify for. The end.

To bring it back to sex - do not give me a prize or job role to meet a female quota. I do not want to have more chance of getting a certain position because I happen to have a womb. I’ve either earned it, or I haven’t.

As the PP pointed out - until 10/15 years ago there were TW (not cross dressers) in those spaces, trying to live their lives peacefully. There may have been a group of people unhappy about that, I don’t know, but there wasn’t … all of this.

Those people are also now unwelcome, they may not live their lives peacefully, because some men cross dress for sexual gain. Which isn’t the same.

Is having Affirmative Action ie people of colour only job appointments "punishing" white people?

This whole thing also excludes the people you’re describing - the ones who were just hoping to live peacefully. How is it fair to punish those people for something they haven’t done?
You can’t sit with us anymore, because some completely random men who you don’t know or associate with did something you weren’t involved in? Hardly reasonable.

Perhaps because those males really shouldn't have been in those spaces, to begin with.

Having female only spaces is not 'punishing' males. Until the last 10-15 years, we had male toilets/facilities and female toilets/facilities. Not all males assault and rape. Yet there is a reason we kept all males out. How is having female only spaces (when males also have male only spaces) punishing males? What is it that people cannot wrap their heads around about female only spaces? Why is that such a difficult concept for some?

There’s an obvious reason that I don’t do certain things, I don’t recall saying you had to do anything.

In the 21st century you think there’s “an obvious reason” that women don’t cut the grass, do DIY, put the bins out or wash the car? What is that reason?

The only reason I don’t cut the grass is because we don’t have any.

Well firstly, I wasn’t looking to Stonewall for life advice to begin with, so I’m not really interested in what they said.

There’s a difference between cross dressers and TW, they’re not the same and they don’t have the same motivation. Like you rightly point out.

This whole thing also excludes the people you’re describing - the ones who were just hoping to live peacefully. How is it fair to punish those people for something they haven’t done?

You can’t sit with us anymore, because some completely random men who you don’t know or associate with did something you weren’t involved in? Hardly reasonable.

I don’t believe in “gender” as distinct from sex. Sex is what matters. Don’t presume to impose your belief system on people who think it’s fashionable toxic nonsense.

Of course there are gendered clothes.Walk into any clothing shop if you are unsure. Or just Google it.

Somethings are stereotypically male, some female. You asked for some examples and I gave them. Does that mean everyone conforms to those stereotypes? Of course not but some people do.

The reason it’s crappy to call a transgender person by their birth gender is because they don’t relate to that gender. Hence why tgey have rejected it. Now not feeling male doesn’t mean you are female but it does mean you might be transgender. It’s no great hard ship to view a transgender person as a trans person.