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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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Sodthesystem · 19/04/2025 15:08

Refer her to actual trans people who agree with you op.

There are plenty that don't believe men are women.

Buck Angel for a start.

Sensible trans people who make it very clear that these new ate trans activists are a cult and don't speak for most trans individuals.

There's also Marcus (goes by:theoffensivetranny on YouTube). And Blair white.

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:08

@HPFA

"It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it."

Everyone who supports transgender rights knows that purpose of gender affirming care is to make the outside of a person feel more congruent with their sense of gender identity, which of course is not always the same as a person's biological sex.

The accusation 'you think males can become females' and strident demands to answer the question 'WHAT'S A WOMAN?' - these are not the gotchas you think they are, except when you're posting on the Daily Mail's comment page.

clarrylove · 19/04/2025 15:04

Ask her to cast her mind back to her school days. Say her male PE teacher suddenly decided over the weekend he now identifies as female and on Monday goes to supervise the girls changing rooms. Is she ok with him watching her change?

UrsulasHerbBag · 19/04/2025 15:03

Don’t fall out with your daughter over it. Agree to disagree and don’t discuss it if it isn’t something immediately effecting your lives.

Nomdejeur · 19/04/2025 15:03

Does she have friends that are trans? I went though to his with my teen DD 4 years ago as 1) she had a trans friend and 2) her English teacher was a “Demi girl” (fuck knows 🤷🏼‍♀️) so she got sucked into the cult. Plus she’s autistic so believes everyone but her mother. I sat her down and laid out the scientific facts, I told her I’d never be mean to her friend, that her teacher is being very inappropriate by having kids stay after class to talk about these issues but men cannot be women and vice versa. I think she was torn between being a good friend and biological reality. After our chat she managed to be both a friend and to understand that her friend did not become female by wearing a skirt. She’s quite GC now and hates it when women lose out in sports.

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:00

@MarvellousMonsters
Your OP also shows that this is a bit of a hobby horse for you, and something that you've clearly spent a lot of time talking about and thinking about. I suspect you've spent a lot of time on TERF friendly social media reading stories about transgender people who've been involved in crimes against women. Your OP is seething with contempt and pity for transgender people, who you mostly frame as dangerous people who really just enjoy 'dressing up' as women.

Maybe that's what your daughter is picking up on.

I feel the same way as your daughter when I have to listen to people who refer to 'boat people', 'being invaded by men of fighting age', 'illegals' and 'grooming gangs' when they're explaining why they think we should all be voting for Reform.

Ophy83 · 19/04/2025 15:00

As a starting point, has she actually read the SC judgment? If she does she will see that the judgment is very sympathetic to trans people and finishes by saying that there likely should be a space for trans people on public boards (it just shouldn't be the space designated for women)

Namechangean · 19/04/2025 14:59

Stop trying to make her drink your kookaid. You’re a hypocrite. Let her have her beliefs and you keep yours

ArabellaScott · 19/04/2025 14:58

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

It's defensive.

I think often people get disproportionately angry because of a lurking cognitive dissonance.

Give her time and space to work things through for herself.

And meanwhile, take care of yourself. Parenting is bloody hard sometimes. Flowers

HPFA · 19/04/2025 14:56

It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it.

So you think you're making reasonable points to your daughter but what she's hearing is "I will force you to become a horrible person, a bigot, who hates people that are different".

For the moment, agree to disagree. There is no point in discussing it at this point.

My own daughter who is 20 treats it in the way she once treated Father Christmas - she knows its not real but finds it easier to pretend she does. She knows I won't join in the pretence but it doesn't bother her and if I mention anything to do with it she just rolls her eyes.

TempestTost · 19/04/2025 14:56

I think a lot has to do with really significant differences in the way kids are educated now. There seems to be little attempt in schools to teach critically assessing claims, or on how liberal democracy works, or the socratic method.

Everything is about hierarchies of oppression, the importance of being an ally, how terrible it is to exclude anyone, and how important it is to validate others.

Many schools have given up things like debates on really contentious topics where they expect kids to take "the other side". Because taking the other side is a sign of evil thinking and trying to defend it rationally will just mean you are vulnerable to becoming evil yourself.

OP, I feel for you, I have had friends convinced I am a bigot and withdraw and I would be devastated if my kids did the same I'd be so upset. It's bad enough they (and my sister of all people) are clearly embarrassed by my thoughts on this topic.

But I would try and leave it for now.

Bruisername · 19/04/2025 14:53

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 14:49

Eh? If a ftm can pass more easily wouldn't she be rather alarmed to find what looks like a man in the toilets etc and less alarmed by the mtf because she'd immediately know and could therefore remove herself if she felt unsafe?

she thinks people will abide by the ruling and the only male looking people in the room would be ftm

she's still naive!!

justasking111 · 19/04/2025 14:51

RNApolymerase · 19/04/2025 13:23

I don't discuss this issue with my university age offspring. They know what I think and I know what they think and there's no point arguing really. I like to think they will work it out eventually.

My youngest has some funny ideas. Rachel Reeves his MP now he's settled in this area. He's doing his masters so five years at university. We don't discuss politics. Although his partner a Yorkshire lass is very racist but in her work she deals with some awful immigrants that my son hasn't experienced.

I just keep schtum.

Hwi · 19/04/2025 14:50

Intelligent educated young WOMAN? Still living with you whilst virtue-signalling? No, she is not a woman, she is a wee girl living with mummy. Educated and can't read the ruling to see it won't discriminate against dysphoria sufferers? No, she is a silly wee girl. Do you not have other topics to discuss?
Brining her up as a feminist? Why not as a humanist, i.e. equality of access, not equality of outcome. Is she paying board and lodgings? Increase her contribution, if that is the case, that will keep her mind of remote philosophical things. It will help her focus on what is really important.

On the positive side, she clearly has a big heart and is a wonderful human being - when I saw Julia Hartley Brewer gloating about the ruling, I found it disgusting. I was unpleasantly surprised to see JK Rowling gloating - did not expect it from her. I am conservative, super conservative and I feel sorry for these people. Your job is to protect your daughter's lovely heart - so it would not be broken so many times because she is lovely, even if silly. Just move away from the topic, if it upsets her. Age will cure her.

mainecooncatonahottinroof · 19/04/2025 14:50

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.

I've no idea why you think any of that is "arrogant".

We're all influenced by our peers, the world around us, and I'm old enough to be able to tell you that our views can and do shift as we mature.

What's wrong with that?!

thevassal · 19/04/2025 14:49

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Honestly, I agree that probably the best way for family harmony is to take a step back from discussing it for the next few years.

However if you did want to argue this point specifically, I'd show her examples of the transwomen in this article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/18/trans-rapists-can-no-longer-claim-to-be-women/
Men who raped women but identify as women (some post conviction, some before). Ask her 'by your rationale, they should be accepted into female prisons so they are safe. Would the women sharing a cell or showers with them be safe?'

If she says yes she is prioritising the safety over transwomen over women. How could a woman ever be safe in a confined space from a convicted rapist who still has a penis?

If she starts obfuscating about how they are the exception for whatever reason, then she can't believe TWAW. You can't say 'TWAW except for when they are nasty people.' Even 'well they are different because they committed their crimes as male,' won't work - self ID means TWAW from the moment they decide they are, regardless of whether they've had any surgery, taken any hormones or taken any steps to start "living as a woman."

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 14:49

Bruisername · 19/04/2025 13:55

Day before the judgement my teen dd was telling me that she sympathises with trans people but she would much rather have a transman in her space than a transwoman and then commented that ftm can pass much more easily than mtf so she would be able to tell and it would make her uncomfortable.

she also said ‘it’s the person not the trans’ and I asked whether she would say the same about ‘it’s the person not the man’. The logic is in there but this generation have had this rammed down their throat about being kind unfortunately

also the point about transwomen being safer in the ladies - why is that? Because men aren’t expected to ‘be kind’

Eh? If a ftm can pass more easily wouldn't she be rather alarmed to find what looks like a man in the toilets etc and less alarmed by the mtf because she'd immediately know and could therefore remove herself if she felt unsafe?

JellySaurus · 19/04/2025 14:46

However, people can’t be reasoned out of positions that they didn’t reason themselves into etc.

Equally, if they did 'reason' themselves into an unreasonable position, it can be incredibly difficult for them to reverse their position. It's almost the equivalent of detransitioning.

"You know my position on this", together with modelling ethical behaviour, is probably your best way forward.

Keep that Golden Bridge open so that your dd can feel safe returning to you when she finally comes to terms with reality.

You are not alone.

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 14:45

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.

I think it’s probably less the fact the daughter has a different view and more this part that PPs are responding to:

We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things

CurlewKate · 19/04/2025 14:44

I know that my daughter is very sad about my gender critical views. She feels exactly the way I would have felt at her age if my much loved mother had shown herself to be an unapologetic racist. We just don’t talk about it at all-the only subject we can’t discuss. It’s heartbreaking for both of us.

PermanentTemporary · 19/04/2025 14:44

Like others, I'd just back right off. It's not compulsory for her to agree with you. I know exactly what you mean - I'm not going to have the discussion with ds, so you've done better than me.

Look for common ground. There will be quite a lot. Give it 20 years or so and she may, or may not, see that you have a point, even if she continues to disagree. See if you can see where she has a point too.

MounjaroOnMyMind · 19/04/2025 14:44

I could have written that myself, OP. I don't say anything now. I did have one discussion which ended in her running upstairs and slamming every door she went past. We were watching The Rachel Divide on Netflix when she said, "This is just like the trans thing, though..." I said, "Exactly!" and she kicked off, telling me there were over 100 sexes and that women should welcome men in dresses into our spaces and so on. She effectively silenced me by running away. She had always absolutely loved JKR and in this argument said it had been a real shock when she "said what she did" (in the letter) - I kept saying, "Show me exactly the words you disagree with" but honestly, I don't think she'd read it, or had read it in a red haze.

Since then we don't talk about it but she works in a related field and is bisexual and occasionally things come up. She told me that many trans people are autistic - I did want to ask her what would happen when their special interest changed from being female to something unrelated, but just couldn't be bothered. I did say in our original discussion that I thought there were tons of lawsuits just waiting to happen - against teachers, parents and medics. "But I was a child!" would be a good defence. I also worry about the anger that older TW will feel when they don't end up with the body they want and effectively have no working genitals. They won't turn that anger on men, that's for sure.

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 19/04/2025 14:41

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

What’s her view on women who have been raped by a transwoman and/or assaulted by them in the ladies toilets? Do our feelings and safety not matter to her?

What’s her view on the MoJ statistics that show how much more likely a transwomen in prison is likely to be in there for rape or sexual assault compared to other men?

Sadly she has been indoctrinated, activists have been targeting universities for many years, you may not get through.

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 14:41

OP, not my daughter — that must really, really hurt — but I'm watching people whom I once thought were friends for life performing grief and offering their sincere apologies on FB for the hateful bigotry shown by the Supreme Court and terfs like me. I thought I'd burned off the anger over the many years I've had to take this shit, but I'm so exceptionally angry with the intelligent, educated, professional women I know who seem to have lost their minds to virtue-signalling. I feel utter contempt for them. They are women no other woman can trust. A man only has to turn up in lipstick and say he's born in the wrong body and they're all over him.

Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:40

Some of the responses on this thread are so arrogant. My children don't agree with me, so it must be the fault of their friends, their universities, a lack of maturity.