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Original poster

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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Redorangehaze · 19/04/2025 15:39

Pigeon31 · 19/04/2025 14:23

She's a liberal feminist. You don't have to agree with her on everything but you should be proud of having raised a daughter who is willing to stand up for her beliefs, which are no less valid than yours.

Also we prefer liberal feminist to woke maiden, thx.

*which are no less valid that yours.'

See, this is the problem with liberal feminism and trans ideology. Beliefs are not 'valid' just because you declare them to be. Opinions have validity if they are coherent, have internal consistency and can be backed up with hard evidence and data. On all these counts, TWAW ideology fails. The supreme court ruling used the word ' incoherent' repeatedly about the TWAW position in relation to single sex services.

And it doesn't at all sound like OP's daughter was able to, 'stand up for her beliefs' .People who are able to 'stand up for their beliefs' are people who are able to engage in reasoned and logical debate in which they are able to defend their position. OPs daughter resorted to childish name calling.

Perhaps name calling is what liberal feminism calls ' standing up for your beliefs' but I, and I hope all reasonable adults, do not.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 15:38

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:10

Reminds me of all the discussions around Section 28 in the 1980's. People used to argue that boys would feel predated upon and unsafe if they knew their male teachers were gay.

Do you agree - that boys might feel unsafe getting changed for PE if they had an out gay teacher supervising their showers or changing area?

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What does that have to do with a fully grown man suddenly announcing he's a woman?!!

Can you not see how ridiculous it is? And he gets straight into women's spaces just on his say so?

Women are the ones at risk from males, which is why we have dedicated spaces. This need has not reduced - in fact, listening to the radio earlier about the behaviour of boys in school (at the teachers' conference), it is clear that we need those spaces more than ever.

Thepeopleversuswork · 19/04/2025 15:37

My DD isn't as old as yours but many of her peers are very much 'captured' in this way and a couple of her (female) peers now identify as male (though not, as yet and thankfully, my DD).

As someone who is essentially gender critical but not hostile to trans people, I find it excruciating and frustrating but I also have chosen not to register my frustration in discussion with her and to keep everything as calm and open as I can. And to superficially pretend that I will engage with the debate if only to debunk it. But I won't allow myself to be too riled up by it.

Partly because I know if I become too strident I know it will simply be seen as an example of how "boomers" (actually Gen X) don't get it and are parroting trans-phobic rhetoric. And will have the effect of pushing her in the other direction.

Partly because some people I know have gone to the other extreme in their alliance with gender critical feminism to the extent that they have become utterly obsessed. And while I do fundamentally agree with their position, I don't believe that the slightly hysterical militancy of some sections of this movement does itself any favours with this generation. It just serves to re-entrench their view that we are bigoted.

And ultimately because I feel compassion for any teenager or young person who has convinced themselves that changing their "gender" will solve any of their problems. Yes they've been captured and manipulated, but making them feel that they are scorned by their parents and the responsible adults in their lives is not going to help them come back into the fold.

I feel for you though OP. I feel genuinely worried about it.

Errahstop · 19/04/2025 15:36

What is all this 'captured' nonsense. Have you stopped.to consider that this generation genuinely feel differently about trans people than you do? The bile spewed on here about trans people is so nasty but I know I'm pissing into the wind by suggesting you just live and let live. If a public toilet is your 'safe space' then you have bigger problems than being a bigot.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 19/04/2025 15:34

Why bother? Just leave her to it. Her ranting isn’t going to change anything. If she starts on again just say “I dont agree with you” and leave it that.

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 15:34

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

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I think this is a more complex area than you’re suggesting and your assumption is that you are just obviously in the right which must be so patronising for your dd. It’s normal to have strident views at her stage and shows she’s a reflective person.

Like you, I’m in my fifties and am generally scared about speaking about trans rights as I inadvertently get pronouns wrong etc but I see merit in both sides of the debate and don’t share your casual convictions.

i’m very aware that women have had lesser power in most areas of life and where resources are in scarce supply we will tend to turn on each other. I’m not sure I’m explaining myself fully but part of me is uncomfortable about celebrating a victory over a minority who have been disrespected and discriminated against.

Theunamedcat · 19/04/2025 15:31

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:31

She is a university graduate, yes, but we are very working class, so I’m not sure if that works for us.

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Same here but my DD is totally captured fortunately she has only ever met kind and respectful transpeople

We don't discuss it I got rid of her harry Potter Dvds recently and she began to lament that she couldn't POSSIBLY enjoy them now after "what she said" I just replied keep or no? I don't get into it with her she tries she fails the last time I said that I was disappointed that she refused to come up with any comprehensive argument other than "trust me bro" I thought she would blow a gasket

Rockhopper1 · 19/04/2025 15:30

Holding your hand x
None of us like admitting we’ve got things wrong . She experiences a huge force from society on all sides telling her ‘trans women are women ‘ . That their feelings are more important than any dangers or disadvantages women face from the implementation of such nonsense . She will be far more exposed to confused young people with trans & bi ‘ identities ‘ than AGPs who as individuals will arouse her protective instincts.

It’s also really hard for ( particularly young ) women to accept so many men seem to have a visceral dislike of women .

Young women face appalling misogyny of the Tate/ porn variety but don’t have the lived experience of going through the stupid battles we did .
I remember my Mother not being allowed her own bank account . Women not being allowed to run marathons , endless discussions about whether women had sufficient gravitas to be allowed to present the news on TV . The girls in my year at Uni had to get higher grades than the boys to be admitted …
Trans rights activism it seems to me , from studying Jennifer Bilek’s work , arose from the validation of the fetish of several billionaires ( Jennifer Pritzker et al ) who bankrolled this and pushed it at kids on internet forums before their parents knew what was going on , 15 or so years ago .
It has flourished because it benefits all straight men indirectly by reintroducing control over women .
These facts will become apparent to many more people as time goes on . The problem atm is one has to dig for them .
I would really endorse other posters here who’ve suggested backing off the topic and giving her time to think .
Also , as a pp suggested , calmly asking her to explain how she sees things if the topic does come up . ‘What is a woman ?’ is really hard to answer without reverting to sexist stereotypes.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 19/04/2025 15:29

I have a woke leftie friend like your daughter who said the same things until what was obviously a man pretending to be a woman started using her changing room at the gym and very obviously leering at the undressed females. The other women said they felt uncomfortable and threatened and so does she. Now she knows what I've been ranting about.

NoIAmTheNewQueenofMN · 19/04/2025 15:28

Sorry, she's lost

Deadringer · 19/04/2025 15:27

I think you have set out your position and beliefs very well here and you sound extremely well informed and reasonable. Your dd will continue to believe whatever she wants but take heart in the fact that she will most likely change her views in time or at recognise that yours are perfectly reasonable. I have 4 dds, the eldest had also swallowed the koolaid and we could never have a conversation without her calling me a bigot. However recently an influencer that she follows has tried to set up a business that is solely for women and she has been ostracised to a degree that has shocked my dd into seeing it from another angle.

HPFA · 19/04/2025 15:26

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:08

@HPFA

"It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it."

Everyone who supports transgender rights knows that purpose of gender affirming care is to make the outside of a person feel more congruent with their sense of gender identity, which of course is not always the same as a person's biological sex.

The accusation 'you think males can become females' and strident demands to answer the question 'WHAT'S A WOMAN?' - these are not the gotchas you think they are, except when you're posting on the Daily Mail's comment page.

Everybody doesn't know that.

I've become very used to being given perfect explanations of the gender critical position by people who think they're on the other side. I've read many articles by people trying to use the "correct" language which invariably end up in a tangle as the author inadvertently reveals that they know exactly what sex is.

TheWombatleague · 19/04/2025 15:24

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 13:49

I don't think the working class thing applies once you go to uni - you are part of that educated elite. You have spent three years or more being spoon fed progressive views and you are set apart from those who didn't go to uni, who are possibly doing better in their careers, so how else to differentiate yourself?

I think this is particularly the case in the US, where being a liberal Democrat more or less demands adherence to the cause.

Anyway, I was going to suggest you/she read 'Hags' by Victoria Smith, which I think might be helpful.

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The point of University education is that you're not "spoon fed" ideas, but given the tools to develop your own critical thinking skills. This increases with the levels of postgraduate study.

That's why the more educated tend to be more progressive in their views, are less likely to believe in a god and don't tend to post prejudice as if it were fact.

AngelicKaty · 19/04/2025 15:24

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Show quote history

Maybe share this table with her OP.
And point out to her that if she can't disagree agreeably with you, then you will have to regard her views with the same contempt and disrespect with which she treated yours.

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)
YoureNotGoingOutLikeThat · 19/04/2025 15:24

Bluegreencat · 19/04/2025 15:10

There’s been a few posts on my Facebook page from the young people I know about this. I find it interesting that they feel the need to make a public declaration - perhaps because it is so controversial. I have friends who are vigorously and vocally on both ‘sides’. I’m interested, and have read a great deal, but unless I trained myself in the art of debate, I wouldn’t engage in it much with any of them.

I'm like this, too. Except, I love a debate and sometimes will "champion" the opposite of my first held position. Thing is, the debate itself has become "toxic", politicised, radicalised and it is hard to raise a hand and ask questions lest the discussion go sideways with insults thrown in. So, this is my first and probably last post on this board. 😓

Back to OP. Putting aside the topic that you and DD are discussing, it sounds like you have brought up a young woman who feels passionately and strongly about her chosen cause. Just as perhaps you do? And maybe she is unable to see subtlety and nuance in debates because it is hard to do that when you believe 100% in your cause. When a group feels under attack, they tend to double down rather than "see the light".

A way forward would be to ask her why she thinks the way she does. I'm pretty sure you are doing that already but when we feel someone's view is "wrong" we tend to want to tell them why and persuade them to our line of thinking. Having a healthy respect for alternative viewpoints does not diminish your own commitment, of course. But it can allow for some common ground to be found and the heat to dissipate when it becomes frustrating and upsetting.

pinkstripeycat · 19/04/2025 15:22

There really are some absolutely brilliant responses from posters on here. Explanations are brilliant 🤩

BreatheAndFocus · 19/04/2025 15:22

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

Try changing tack. Don’t mention women. Say that you’re surprised that she’d be so unkind as to deny trans men the protection of having it clarified that the PC of Pregnancy/Maternity applies to them. Speak gently, do a puzzled expression. This should reduce her anger and make her stop and think.

As for toilets, again keep the tone gentle and interested, and ask her what other men she thinks women’s toilets should be a refuge for: gay men? elderly men? disabled men? Then say you’re a little disappointed that she thinks so little of men that she assumes they won’t tolerate anyone a bit different.

If she persists in shouting TWAW, then ask her to elaborate. Watch her tie herself in knots but say very little, except to gently ask questions which highlight the illogical rubbish she’s spouting.

When I first discussed this with my DD, she was outraged at what I said and got quite heated. I left it because she was really worked up, but a year or so after that we had cause to discuss it briefly again in relation to some news story, and her views had subtly changed as had her tone, which was far, far less angry.

Sweetpeasaremadeforbees · 19/04/2025 15:19

Op, I just wouldn't bother discussing it with her. My 18 yo has fallen for a lot of the bollocks mostly because it's been dragged into the LGB rights movement. She's anti JKR and thinks the sun shines out of David Tennant and his vile wife's arses.

But, we generally have a pretty good relationship, we've just mutually decided that our views on this issue are completely different. I think the fact that she doesn't see the danger in men going into women's spaces means that so far she hasn't been exposed to male harassment which to me as her mum, is a relief, but one day sadly, statistically she probably will be. Which scares me because it's going to come as a huge shock.

pinkstripeycat · 19/04/2025 15:16

She just needs to mature a little more.

My DS are 17 & 19 and have no issue with trans people. They can see both sides. They can see women need safe spaces. There’s no extreme opinions on this from them and I’m glad. The eldest is at uni and there is a large mix of folk including trans people.

He has a good mix of friends with different races, religions, and sexual orientation. He just shrugs and says “I’m friends with those I get on with. It’s that simple. People are people and we just have a laugh together, work hard together and mind our own business.”

I have a trans female sibling (for the past 16 years) so have a bit of a clue.

novalia89 · 19/04/2025 15:13

HPFA · 19/04/2025 14:56

It's a very difficult subject to discuss because of course nobody actually believes that males can become females but at the same time they've been told that they're horrible people if they dont believe it.

So you think you're making reasonable points to your daughter but what she's hearing is "I will force you to become a horrible person, a bigot, who hates people that are different".

For the moment, agree to disagree. There is no point in discussing it at this point.

My own daughter who is 20 treats it in the way she once treated Father Christmas - she knows its not real but finds it easier to pretend she does. She knows I won't join in the pretence but it doesn't bother her and if I mention anything to do with it she just rolls her eyes.

'My own daughter who is 20 treats it in the way she once treated Father Christmas - she knows its not real but finds it easier to pretend she does. She knows I won't join in the pretence but it doesn't bother her and if I mention anything to do with it she just rolls her eyes.'

I used this exact argument with my friend who thinks that I am a Nazi Terf. I told him that I just lie/go along with the belief that the trans person has even though I don't believe it. Same with my religious friend. I don't believe in Allah but I am not going to tell her that, nor does she expect that I should believe in Allah (or God, but I don't have many Christian friends who probably actually believe in God)

thedancingclown · 19/04/2025 15:13

Don't argue when you cannot win but maybe point out the original gay and lesbian community had to fight for recognition which they (rightfully) achieved (during and after the AIDS era) without insults to women, death threats, and invading single sex spaces already hard won by women (who also had to fight for the right to vote, open a bank account without a man, own a home etc).

Trans people are not fighters for their rights - they are demanders of other people's.

Redorangehaze · 19/04/2025 15:11

You can't talk to someone who does not want to listen. She has been indoctrinated in a climate that holds simplistic view of 'good' and 'bad' views that equal 'good' and 'bad' people. Hence her contempt. If she starts to grow out of this, she may wish to listen to other views to help her reach a view that is genuinely her own based on listening to all viewpoints. So I would say that if she even wants to hear your position you are willing to talk it through with her. And leave it at that.

If that day even comes I would not make this about trans people, as its not. When it comes to single sex spaces its about men, regardless of how they identify. There is no gate keeping of ' true trans' all men can come in, including the predatory ones regardless of whether or not they have an 'identity.' Single sex spaces are about sex. Keep it to that.

Sabire9 · 19/04/2025 15:10

clarrylove · 19/04/2025 15:04

Ask her to cast her mind back to her school days. Say her male PE teacher suddenly decided over the weekend he now identifies as female and on Monday goes to supervise the girls changing rooms. Is she ok with him watching her change?

Reminds me of all the discussions around Section 28 in the 1980's. People used to argue that boys would feel predated upon and unsafe if they knew their male teachers were gay.

Do you agree - that boys might feel unsafe getting changed for PE if they had an out gay teacher supervising their showers or changing area?

Bluegreencat · 19/04/2025 15:10

There’s been a few posts on my Facebook page from the young people I know about this. I find it interesting that they feel the need to make a public declaration - perhaps because it is so controversial. I have friends who are vigorously and vocally on both ‘sides’. I’m interested, and have read a great deal, but unless I trained myself in the art of debate, I wouldn’t engage in it much with any of them.

novalia89 · 19/04/2025 15:09

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

I am the same as you. I honestly don't care about someone's pronouns. I will happily call my trans woman friend 'her'. It's just a word. I also helped her choose clothes etc.

I also am not as bothered about single sex spaces - I would prefer female only dorms, but it's not the end of the world. I share unisex regularly.

I also feel sorry for people who have severe gender dysphoria and I watched a video on youtube with toxic men, commenting on 'feminine' men, and I got it (briefly). I also don't think that I have an issue with non-binary, they aren't trying to claim to be something that they are not, just that they don't feel that they are the sex that they were born as, probably because of societal reasons.

However, no matter how much the dysphoria, I will not and will never believe that trans people ARE the opposite sex (don't get me wrong, I did previously, when it was almost claimed that people CAN change their sex - like 15 years ago). I think that the TRA movement has almost shot themselves in the foot by trying to convince people that they ARE the opposite sex. It has backfired.