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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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TrainGame · 19/04/2025 16:58

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Sorry to have to spell it out and my hope is very much this would never happen, but how would she feel about things if a transwoman raped her one night in some toilets in a nightclub or pub? Or was aggressively sexual with her? How would she feel then?

Ultimately, a penis is a rape weapon. Certainly for the majority of men, they'd not use their penis like this - however any man has the potential to rape a woman.

Therefore, she cannot compromise safe spaces because if we let one man in, we might as well let them all in - and amongst them, there will be rapists.

That's as clear as day.

Mostly though OP, your DD is young and naive and believes that we are all equal. Sadly, as life passes she'll understand that's really not the case and women take repeated knocks throughout life due to their gender and this whole episode has been another attempt by a small segment of men to erase our rights.

As we are older, we've seen it, felt it, experienced it, been kicked in the teeth with it: the world is still very much set up for the success of men in many areas of life.

Until she gets some life experience, she probably won't change.

I'd suggest dropping it for now. As PPs said, your relationship is worth so much more than this. Also, you need to take a step back and allow her brain to mature. Brains only become fully adult at age 26 or 27 and anything our young ones do or believe before then, often comes from misunderstandings, for good or bad. In the end, parental love is unconditional. You love her no matter what. You accept her, no matter what, you are the adult in the relationship. So be it. And allow her to fail graciously and be there magnanimously, when she comes full circle.

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 16:57

Rockhopper1 · 19/04/2025 15:57

Conflating this debate with racism or the rights of same sex attracted people as a few previous posters do here & in other threads is absolutely disgusting.
That people from people from all ethnic backgrounds, or who are lesbian , gay or bi should have equal rights with everyone else is an absolute given for me . I lived through and fought alongside people who were discriminated against for these nonsense reasons.
Calling left wing feminists ‘ bigots ‘ because we can see the huge damage being caused to women and children by trans rights activism really won’t wash I’m afraid .

Then you should remember that gay people were deemed to be mentally ill and in need of conversion treatment. Along with all the other marginalised groups who have been treated abominably and hatefully over the decades. Trans people deserve the same respect and kindness that is now given to those other people. The downright nastiness against trans people on this board in general takes my breath away. If this was my daughter I would be so proud of her for being so open hearted and kind. But I know it is pointless to have any view except hate on trans people on here so don't all bother to pile on because I see you, I've read you.

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 16:49

Mudkipper · 19/04/2025 16:13

Are you American, OP? Koolaid isn't really a thing in the UK.

It's a reference to the Jonestown massacre, where the members of the cult drank squash laced with poison. It's a saying - maybe younger people don't get it but it's something I might say.

JumpingPumpkin · 19/04/2025 16:37

NRFT sorry. Just wanted to say that I personally don’t focus on the arguments that some mtf people are predatory. I stick to the fact that we have single sex spaces for privacy and dignity and no men are allowed in those women’s spaces. Not even my son, dad or partner, all of whom are lovely and no threat to anyone.

So men who identify as women fall into the category of not female, they are male and allowing them in makes the space mixed sex.
There’s also the problem that if men in dresses are allowed in it’s the perfect option for predatory men, who are unfortunately indistinguishable from genuine transexuals/transgender people (if such a thing exists).

In terms of arguing do keep coming back to the fact that you have no problem with how they present.

Hope things work out okay.

Auntiebenita · 19/04/2025 16:37

Infuriating and upsetting though it is, I don’t think rational argument will change her mind. But that doesn’t mean it's ok to speak to you rudely.

It's probably best to just avoid the subject or say "Our opinions differ", but if you want to fight back you could send her this link (to some of the vile threats made to JKR) and ask her what she thinks of them. (If she says JKR deserves it, ask her to cite examples of the supposed transphobic words or behaviour). This is years old so I’m sure there have been many, many more since. Warning: they are disgusting. http://terfisaslur.com.

TERF is a slur

Documenting the abuse, harassment and misogyny of transgender identity politics

https://terfisaslur.com/

maltravers · 19/04/2025 16:36

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 16:25

Why are you absorbing so much of your time in debating an issue that really impacts a very small percentage of the population? There are so many other things that are detrimental to women’s lives e.g. inequality in healthcare, different economic outcomes after divorce, wage discrimination etc. And perhaps that’s why this ruling has been so hyped up, whilst we’re het up over this, we’re ignoring the obvious.

The fact that this has split your family is very sad.

Yet here you are debating it…and women are 50/51% of the population, so not a “small percentage”.

Seeingadistance · 19/04/2025 16:36

Bluegreencat · 19/04/2025 13:26

I don’t discuss it with mine either. For the same reasons.

Yep. I used to be able to talk about it, but not any more. Young adult DS is fully aware of my opinions and I just have to hope and trust that sense will prevail.

To be honest, I'm currently more angry with people, men and women, my own age who are posting pro-trans stuff all over social media. They are old enough to know better.

lifeonmars100 · 19/04/2025 16:33

What does "captured" mean?

Lilactimes · 19/04/2025 16:28

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

The strength of feeling seems to be really generational. My DD who is usually very calm has been very heated over this ruling. Likewise look at all the young cast of Harry Potter turning against JKR for her views.

I genuinely don’t think you can change her mind, you will just affect and possibly ruin your relationship. There are many areas you overlap with. I would not talk about it for a good while. X

maltravers · 19/04/2025 16:26

Mudkipper · 19/04/2025 16:13

Are you American, OP? Koolaid isn't really a thing in the UK.

It’s a thing on this (UK mainly) board.

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 16:25

PriOn1 · 19/04/2025 16:05

I haven’t read the whole thread yet and not sure if I will, but I am in a very similar position. Managed to get all mine through teenage, intact and unindoctrinated, then my daughter met a slightly younger woman from a very captured university and that was that.

We clung on for a while, but she gradually became more angry with me and finally cut me off after I was overheard talking to someone else about it.

The thing is, I know I haven’t failed. I was a good mother to her and she grew into a wonderful young woman. I honestly believe transactivism and sections of the so-called LGBTQ community are like a narcissistic boyfriend, who tries to alienate you from those who love you by creating suspicion and paranoia, pushing you to choose between community or parent, with threats of ostracism unless you do exactly what they demand.

I hope she’ll come back. It’s an agonising pain, but it’s impossible for me to do anything that will appease her, partly because I can’t lie about this and partly because no apology is ever enough.

Sending hugs OP. I hope you find a way forward.

Edited

Why are you absorbing so much of your time in debating an issue that really impacts a very small percentage of the population? There are so many other things that are detrimental to women’s lives e.g. inequality in healthcare, different economic outcomes after divorce, wage discrimination etc. And perhaps that’s why this ruling has been so hyped up, whilst we’re het up over this, we’re ignoring the obvious.

The fact that this has split your family is very sad.

PanickingNowHelpPlease · 19/04/2025 16:24

Mudkipper · 19/04/2025 16:13

Are you American, OP? Koolaid isn't really a thing in the UK.

Google is your friend here. It’s an infamous historical reference

TheWombatleague · 19/04/2025 16:24

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 15:56

But once you apply critical thinking to the concept that Transwomen are Women, the argument collaspes. Which is just what happened in the Supreme Court. The position has been disproven, so why would bright critical thinkers still believe it?

I think it's because it's a matter of blind faith rather than reasoned argument, which is why I'm dissapointed that my daughter is not thinking rationally about this. I'd feel the same if she was anti-vax.

Or do you believe that the members of the Supreme Court not capable of critical reasoning or rational thought?

Do you think Parliament is going to rush to change the Equality Act to state that women includes transmen?

You'd have to ask her what her problem is with the decision by the Supreme Court that clarifies what sex refers to. I'm assuming it has to pass the burden of reasonabless to be workable, so where it could reasonably be argued that a transwoman should have access to spaces & services, that'll still be the case.

I'd like to think it'll put an end to the idea that women's refuges, prisons, rape crisis centres etc should have to accept anyone who identifies as a woman, but I'm not convinced. I don't think parliament will change the equality act, but I think there will be some interesting cases to come.

The rest of her concerns, I'm sure you have enough common ground to agree with her on.

Marieb19 · 19/04/2025 16:23

Regrettably successive government's have allowed Stonewall to propagate their dangerous, illogical ideologies and introduce misogynistic, autocratic policies into our universities and institutions. They have done their best to eradicate, womens sport, safe places and even the words women and mothers from the dictionary, reducing women to be described as a set of gynaecological parts. Your daughter may well be captured but why would she react so viciously to your views. Unfortunately, for this cult to survive, it demands total acquiesce to its beliefs and no toleration of any other views. Give her some space.

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 16:19

Mudkipper · 19/04/2025 16:13

Are you American, OP? Koolaid isn't really a thing in the UK.

What an odd question - I suspect most adults in the UK would understand the reference.

Kinsters · 19/04/2025 16:16

My sister, whom I love deeply, and I have very different views on this subject. We've both said our pieces and know how the other feels and now we just don't talk about it.

Talkinpeace · 19/04/2025 16:16

Agreed to disagree.

Do not try to convince her.

Tell her that calling other people bigots is intolerant authoritarianism and inappropriate.

Then hold on to your views and wait till she peaks (which she will)

Beamur · 19/04/2025 16:15

Sorry you've had a falling out over this.
Let the situation calm before you talk about this again. You're not going to be the one who illuminates a different perspective on this. She is entitled to her own views, but I would say that whilst you can agree to disagree, you both need to be mindful of using appropriate language and being respectful.
This issue seems to attract a disproportionate amount of heat and fury in people.
Feelings are inflamed and there's probably all sorts of misinformation being circulated on the internet.
It's a clarification, not a new ruling but it will cascade to policy and provision of services. In reality I doubt it will cause that much trouble day to day to trans people. It's not going to suddenly affect toilets, but it might mean they have to have clearer signs for example, and I think it will enable single sex spaces to assert those restrictions and in doing so, I would hope that the needs of trans people excluded from those places are properly met elsewhere.

mothersdayhmm · 19/04/2025 16:13

Ha! I remember my DD in her teens, telling me that I was homophobic because I said I'd never date a bisexual man. Now she's married and mid 20's, there's no way she would want her DH to be into men!

Anyway, I digress. I think I'd tell her that there are :

A) Men who genuinely want to be women, and live peacefully as a woman, and cause us no harm

B) Men who have fetishes, still want sex with women, and who will stop at nothing to get into female spaces in order to have unfettered access (men in dresses wanking in female loos for eg, and men in changing rooms, taking pics of women over the curtains, or worse committing rape)

And that whilst we probably have no issue with the people in band A, we can't allow them into female only spaces, because we have no idea whether they are, in fact, in band A or B, because it's not written on their foreheads.

I would also ask her whether she would be happy to be in a prison cell with Isla Bryson, the trans "woman" who was jailed for rape, and then went on to rape his cell mate, who had no say in who she was housed with.

I would also ask her whether she would be happy to stand as number 2 on a sports podium, because 6ft5 Jane, who was born Dave, beat her in her sport.

Will she be happy if she has a daughter, for that little girl to have a penis swinging in her face when she's changing after swimming. That sort of thing.

I have a feeling you will be shouting into a chasm. Which is a shame. You just can't make some young people see sense. Gives me the fucking rage.

Mudkipper · 19/04/2025 16:13

Are you American, OP? Koolaid isn't really a thing in the UK.

TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 19/04/2025 16:11

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 14:41

OP, not my daughter — that must really, really hurt — but I'm watching people whom I once thought were friends for life performing grief and offering their sincere apologies on FB for the hateful bigotry shown by the Supreme Court and terfs like me. I thought I'd burned off the anger over the many years I've had to take this shit, but I'm so exceptionally angry with the intelligent, educated, professional women I know who seem to have lost their minds to virtue-signalling. I feel utter contempt for them. They are women no other woman can trust. A man only has to turn up in lipstick and say he's born in the wrong body and they're all over him.

Oh, me too! I was just telling dh that NFW can I be honest on social media as I could lose my job. Wtaf but that’s where we are.

tothesea · 19/04/2025 16:10

TeaAndCock · 19/04/2025 15:58

I imagine the reason she spoke to you with such contempt is because there’s been a fine line between protecting women’s rights (good) and bigotry towards trans people (bad), the sc ruling helps the former but we need to be careful of the latter, whether these people have these issues due to poor mental health or whatever the reason, they exist and always have.
There is a minority within their minority, of men who will take advantage of the situation, perverts who are aroused by dressing as women etc but these people are not even genuinely trans and if that way inclined men will find a way to abuse women regardless. You might not like gender stereotypes and neither do I really but live and let live, some people feel like they are/were in the wrong body and that’s life.

Calling trans people’not genuinely’ trans is considered transphobic in the trans community. So that makes you a transphobe.
Commenting that trans people have been born in the wrong body ..also transphobic. Women can have penises etc etc
Do you see the issue?
Being kind and live and let live? Where has that got us?
Men in our jails, support groups, refuges, changing rooms, hospital wards, sports etc in direct conflict with our right to safety, privacy and dignity.
As PP stated it’s all very well being kind and live and let live…until it starts affecting you!!

shuggles · 19/04/2025 16:09

@Hairyesterdaygonetoday I do: involuntarily celibate men who rage against the women who they think should be providing sexual favours. By extension, any miserable enraged men who hate women, while of course remaining obsessed with us.

That's incorrect. An incel is anyone who claims to be involuntarily celibate; it is not a gender-specific term.

Why are people who advocate for the rights of transgender people being conflated with incels? From what I've seen online, the most sexist men also seem to have an intense hatred for transwomen.

Karasis · 19/04/2025 16:09

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop.

No, it isn't.

@StMarie4me I think your post is pretty disingenuous because I bet you know full well that Op probably doesn't know the origin of that expression, as many people do not, and that is why she used it. In which case she is not "being flippant about mass murder", she is speaking in ignorance, and your faux outrage is unhelpful. But I agree it is a phase no-one should be using.