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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
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usernamealreadytaken · 19/04/2025 22:00

Pipsquiggle · 19/04/2025 20:10

I want people to be able to live the life they want to lead, that includes dressing up as the opposite sex. I also don't mind if they or others think they are women. I also think trans people have a really shit time growing up and the mental turmoil they go through to get to this realisation must be incredibly difficult.

From a legal perspective though, I was irked by how data was collated e.g 'women' now being recorded as having testicular /prostate cancer which is ridiculous.
I was annoyed by sport after puberty how men identifying as women could join the female category
And how there should be spaces that are female only eg. Rape crises centres, hospital wards etc.

I think most people think like I do.

I’d wager quite a few “trans” people don’t have a shit time growing up unless it’s of their own making, because they are men using trans to get what they want, eg Isla Bryson.

Pipsquiggle · 19/04/2025 20:10

I want people to be able to live the life they want to lead, that includes dressing up as the opposite sex. I also don't mind if they or others think they are women. I also think trans people have a really shit time growing up and the mental turmoil they go through to get to this realisation must be incredibly difficult.

From a legal perspective though, I was irked by how data was collated e.g 'women' now being recorded as having testicular /prostate cancer which is ridiculous.
I was annoyed by sport after puberty how men identifying as women could join the female category
And how there should be spaces that are female only eg. Rape crises centres, hospital wards etc.

I think most people think like I do.

NImumconfused · 19/04/2025 19:36

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 18:08

You actually support people like this over the wishes and needs of women like me and my daughters? https://x.com/EssexPR/status/1913307490202374570

That's so ridiculous - asked a few simple questions, he says the interviewer "trapped him" because he can't admit that he just doesn't give two hoots about what women think or feel as long as he gets what he wants! 😡

Talkinpeace · 19/04/2025 18:42

To quote Naomi Cunningham

How many peanuts stop a dish being nut free ?

maltravers · 19/04/2025 18:36

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 18:07

I meant that trans women are a small percentage of the population.

And I commented on this post because it felt very one sided and gave the impression that all biological women over a certain age feel the same.

I haven’t discussed this ruling with my friends, family or teenage children. It’s such a divisive topic.

I don’t expect nor need my children to agree with me as things change over time and that’s healthy.

But your premise was that this (the judgment, the underlying issue) only affects a tiny proportion. The following things affect women and Ito me/us are of legitimate interest and importance:

  • lesbians being entitled to meet without male bodied people present
  • Abused/raped women being entitled to a shelter without male bodied people present
  • Religious minority women having certainty that they can enter a space without male bodied people present.
  • women and girls being able to participate and excel in sport by competing against women and girls, not male bodied people.
  • women and girls being able to go to loos/changing rooms without male bodied people present

there are others of course. If you think these things don’t affect women and girls you are not being honest with yourself.

I don’t need to discuss this with my family and I can accept the younger ones may have different views, but I don’t want to be scolded for discussing these very real concerns on a feminism board.

tothesea · 19/04/2025 18:25

They never answer that sort of question. Why? Cos it exposes what they believe in for what it is. A Male rights movement.

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 18:08

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

You actually support people like this over the wishes and needs of women like me and my daughters? https://x.com/EssexPR/status/1913307490202374570

https://x.com/EssexPR/status/1913307490202374570

Jewel52 · 19/04/2025 18:07

maltravers · 19/04/2025 16:36

Yet here you are debating it…and women are 50/51% of the population, so not a “small percentage”.

I meant that trans women are a small percentage of the population.

And I commented on this post because it felt very one sided and gave the impression that all biological women over a certain age feel the same.

I haven’t discussed this ruling with my friends, family or teenage children. It’s such a divisive topic.

I don’t expect nor need my children to agree with me as things change over time and that’s healthy.

usernamealreadytaken · 19/04/2025 18:07

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

You agree with OP’s daughter that MtF trans individuals raping women doesn’t mean that women should have a safe space based on biology? Or is it just other bits of her opinion you agree with, as an intelligent and educated woman?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/04/2025 18:02

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 16:57

Then you should remember that gay people were deemed to be mentally ill and in need of conversion treatment. Along with all the other marginalised groups who have been treated abominably and hatefully over the decades. Trans people deserve the same respect and kindness that is now given to those other people. The downright nastiness against trans people on this board in general takes my breath away. If this was my daughter I would be so proud of her for being so open hearted and kind. But I know it is pointless to have any view except hate on trans people on here so don't all bother to pile on because I see you, I've read you.

I'm sorry but I don't see the connection.

Gay people were deemed to be mentally ill and that was wrong.

People who believe they are controlled by alien energy beams are deemed to be mentally ill and that is true.

Society being wrong about gay people doesn't mean it can't be right about trans people any more than being right about the alien people means it can't be wrong about trans people.

But what I think you are missing is that being gay or straight or bi is something that a person can be unilaterally. It's defined simply for oneself. You don't need to make any assumptions about how anyone else feels or loves, you juat need to know how you feel and love.

Contrast with trans people. Their claim is that they think and feel like the opposite sex so somehow they really are the opposite sex in a mental/spiritual way that is more important and authorative than physical body. But this claim depends on the trans person's assumptions about how other people feel and think. They don't know, they can't know, that what they feel really is the same as the opposite sex, it's all just their own projection.

Do you see? The issue has never been how trans people feel about themselves, it's that accepting those feelings as an external, objective truth redefines everyone else in ways that many of us do not recognise as truthful.

The problem is that the activists' and allies' are always making the focus the problems and needs of trans people and how they can never supported, so people don't think to consider how accepting genderist ideas of men and women changes the status andrights of everyone else as well often in ways that are as insulting and inauthentic to us as misgendering feels to trans people.

IBelieveinSomething · 19/04/2025 18:00

Op, I have this exact same problem. I don’t know the answer though.

AliasGrace47 · 19/04/2025 17:46

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 13:40

It's usually the bright, engaged, liberal, university kids who get deep into this. They need a cause to fight for - we already did feminism, abortion and gay rights, so this is their cause.

Their arguments are so weak as they're based on emotion, not reason, they want to passionately fight to over throw a grievience.

There's lots still wrong with the world, but transrights are very popular with young people, as you don't have to do anything other than say the right things - be passionate about climate change and there's no more cheap Ryanair flights for you.

My DD just refuses to talk to me about gender issues, as she doesn't want to argue with me ie hear views she doesn't agree with and be presented with evidence. I do feel I've failed.

Anyway, I've seen with friends with older kids that they do tend to grow out of their right on gender views.

So right! Gen Zer here- if only people would focus on people in Ukraine or Sudan, or helping Arab & Jewish civilians in the war rather than supporting Hamas!

Summer2025 · 19/04/2025 17:44

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 13:40

It's usually the bright, engaged, liberal, university kids who get deep into this. They need a cause to fight for - we already did feminism, abortion and gay rights, so this is their cause.

Their arguments are so weak as they're based on emotion, not reason, they want to passionately fight to over throw a grievience.

There's lots still wrong with the world, but transrights are very popular with young people, as you don't have to do anything other than say the right things - be passionate about climate change and there's no more cheap Ryanair flights for you.

My DD just refuses to talk to me about gender issues, as she doesn't want to argue with me ie hear views she doesn't agree with and be presented with evidence. I do feel I've failed.

Anyway, I've seen with friends with older kids that they do tend to grow out of their right on gender views.

I was already sceptical but unsure. For me what cemented my somewhat GC views was pregnancy. I had a bad time of it what with gestational diabetes and I asked for a tubal ligation if i possibly had a c section. I am 32 years old and I have been sure I want an only child for 10 years. But my GP refused to even refer me because she said that I might change my mind in 10 years (tbh she didnt seem that concerned when i was struggling with my fertility)...DH got approved immediately for a vasectomy, he is currently recovering from it.

That is the diffrence between men and women. Women are still treated like little girls who don't know their own mind even if they are in their 30s. On the other hand they are supporting hysterectomies for people barely out of their teens.

That's the thing for many young women. We go to university at a higher rate than men and many of us outearn men. But we are still the ones who get pregnant and we are the ones carrying the baby. That is a biological reality that you are only faced with when it happens to you .

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/04/2025 17:42

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 16:19

What an odd question - I suspect most adults in the UK would understand the reference.

I always assumed "drank the kool aid" was a reference to the Electric Kool Aid Acid Test, ie someone is tripping out of reality.

Screamingabdabz · 19/04/2025 17:38

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.

George Orwell

SaltPorridge · 19/04/2025 17:38

Hugs OP.

Connect with your daughter on something else.

I'm intrigued to see how my girlboys are when school starts.

Rockhopper1 · 19/04/2025 17:24

ElliesPantry · 19/04/2025 16:57

Then you should remember that gay people were deemed to be mentally ill and in need of conversion treatment. Along with all the other marginalised groups who have been treated abominably and hatefully over the decades. Trans people deserve the same respect and kindness that is now given to those other people. The downright nastiness against trans people on this board in general takes my breath away. If this was my daughter I would be so proud of her for being so open hearted and kind. But I know it is pointless to have any view except hate on trans people on here so don't all bother to pile on because I see you, I've read you.

But you have neither ‘seen ‘ nor understood what I have written here it seems .

bigkahunaburger · 19/04/2025 17:23

Genevieva · 19/04/2025 14:23

Honestly? My advice is that you don't return to this issue. Neither of you have any power over it and it has the capacity to destroy your relationship, so bury it.

To the extent that you want to be 'armed' here are a few pieces of food for thought:

  1. The term transwoman has been used as a generic catch all for too wide a group of people. That includes the vulnerable people with gender dysphoria who your daughter is concerned about, but it also includes criminals who have been able to hide in plain sight under this term in order to access women's spaces and commit crimes. The clarity given by the Supreme Court this week will make it easier to protect all vulnerable people - children, women and those with gender dysphoria.
  2. The English Common Law system is based on the interpretation of a reasonable person. The judgment itself follows this pattern and is extremely reasonable. It is possible she has read secondhand articles about it that have twisted the words of the judgment to elicit an emotive response in the reader that isn't warranted.
  3. Based on current data c.20% of men,c. 5% of women and c.75% of transwomen in prison are there for convictions related to violent sexual crimes.

Have you got a cite for that data cos Im defo using that one! I am so so sick of hearing 'transwomen are safe. its cis men that are the danger'.

YourAmplePlumPoster · 19/04/2025 17:22

They're actually doing this right now in Parliament Square.
https://x.com/Doctor_Az_/status/1913575478587248769

https://x.com/Doctor_Az_/status/1913575478587248769

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 17:20

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

You agree with OP’s daughter that people with gender critical views are bigots?

ArtTheClown · 19/04/2025 17:16

Maybe, I don't know, but are you sure?

Hardly a ringing endorsement:
"the literature to date suffers from a lack of methodological rigor that increases the risk of type I error. There is a need for continued research in suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment that adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity and treatment, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing and reducing factors."

It is deeply unethical imo to perform extreme surgeries on people due to their mental health issues, leaving them in many cases with lifelong complications and lack of sexual function.

In years to come, we'll view them as we currently do lobotomies.

Screamingabdabz · 19/04/2025 17:09

Errahstop · 19/04/2025 15:36

What is all this 'captured' nonsense. Have you stopped.to consider that this generation genuinely feel differently about trans people than you do? The bile spewed on here about trans people is so nasty but I know I'm pissing into the wind by suggesting you just live and let live. If a public toilet is your 'safe space' then you have bigger problems than being a bigot.

People can’t change sex. I’m sorry but that is an undisputed fact. So what we are left with is pandering to a delusion and your simplistic ‘live and let live’ philosophy which would be fine if it didn’t have such significant harms to girls and women.

Do you not think girls and women deserve privacy and dignity? Genuinely interested. Because when you let one male bodied person in, you let them all. And why is it “spewing bile” to say that? Again genuinely interested in the answer. Or do we just have to stfu and do what men want at any cost?

WearyAuldWumman · 19/04/2025 17:08

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

There's nothing you can do, OP. Your DD will have to sense in her own time.

My SGD - unfortunately - took a minor in Gender Studies at uni. Her best friend was a young woman/transman who had a double mastectomy at 20. When SGD's mum expressed disquiet, the response was "Mum! You're soooo transphobic."

SGD now works for a district council and has her pronouns in her profiles. I'm hoping that she'll eventually wake up.

ETA - I'm so sorry - did not mean to quote the OP - hit the wrong button.

Keeptoiletssafe · 19/04/2025 17:07

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

By excepting transwoman into spaces, they become mixed sex. That means in changing rooms and toilet cubicles the designs change and go private. If the transwoman was to be attacked they wouldn’t be seen (neither would she or anyone else). If the transwoman was to have a heart attack, stroke, seizure, drug related incident or mental health emergency they would not be seen (neither would she or anyone else). The health and safety gaps get replaced by privacy.

tothesea · 19/04/2025 16:58

Blinky21 · 19/04/2025 16:55

This is so patronising, she's intelligent and educated so should agree with you? I'm intelligent and educated and agree with your daughter, along with millions of other people

To clarify you agree that women are not entitled to single sex space?