Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

Lots of people support trans ideology because it is nice and idealistic and relies on 'be kind' and 'equality' cliches...but once they've been negatively impacted themselves then they start to perceive matters quite differently.

Take the exampes of girls playing sport being censured and reprimanded for commenting on that fact there are boys in their team. I met a woman once who was in a women's football team, and a trans identified male player kicked the ball so hard it broke her wrist. After that she realised why we have single sex sports, for example, and she also became far more recpetive to arguments that were more generally critical of 'inclusiveness'.

My kids both disagreed with me initially. Ds (who’s gay) was the first to change his mind - he started by reading what JK Rowling actually said - not what has been said about her - he agreed that what she said was reasonable. But amongst his peers, if his views were know, they would be violently disagreed with.
Dd was harder nut to crack but she eventually started to question it through the issue of transwomen in woman’s sport. They still strongly empathise with trans people but they support single sex spaces based on biology.

This will turn out to be a generational trend...when we look back in the future. A social trend which came about through the academy and the teaching of post modernistic theories in universities from the late 1980s to the early 2020's.

Already, in schools, we see the next up and coming generations are moving on.

At times you have to agree to disagree ds thinks I am transphobic and also anti men at times I personally am not offended I just remember seeing the world in a simpler way

I am quite sure if I was a teenager or early 20s I would side I would be think the Supreme Court judgement was wrong one I didn’t understand male entitlement and secondly I was more idealistic which many young people are.

your views as you mature often change as I am sure many young people views on this subject will

life experiences will change her views on many issues

Precisely! Time and experience tends to make you more realistic.

Is it not just that so many of us remember what it felt like to be young and sure and full of righteous passion then, but understand now how naive we were and how much we had to learn, and most importantly how the men we believed supported us and also wanted a fairer society somehow still ended up shafting us in the same old ways?

If you're educated and intelligent, can you explain why you don't appear to think female rape survivors should be entitled to single sex support?

You're right that trans people are a very small percentage of the population.

It is totally wrong to say that this only impacts a small percentage of the population.

It impacts most of the population, but women more than anyone.

A better question is why anyone thinks it is reasonable or proportionate to compromise the rights, safety and dignity of more than half the population, for the sake of such a small number of people. Some of whom are genuinely despicable. (For example, the ones threatening to kill TERFs and throw their piss everywhere.)

What’s wrong with it is that people are assuming their children can’t have any thoughts of their own. And that you must be right and they only disagree with you because they’ve been conditioned by outside sources.

I do actually respect that my DC, like anyone, can have their own thoughts and viewpoints. Of course I think I’m right - why would anyone hold any views they don’t think are right? - but I think I’m right because of a process of logical reasoning.

For example, if the only evidence that someone it trans is that they say so, that means anyone can be trans and we have no way of knowing if they are just saying that to get an advantage. And as saying it brings males many advantages (eg in sport) and predatory opportunities (eg in prisons) then I don’t think it should override biological sex when we make sex categories, because that clearly disadvantages females, but not males, and that is wrong. I can argue that point on the basis of logic, evidence and fairness.

I am absolutely willing to listen to the case that gender identity should be treated as sex, and to hear the logical, evidence based arguments for that. But no one has ever provided them. I’m still happy to hear them and am open to changing my mind if they are convincing. Fire away.

I've seen a lot of people say that this will cause an outbreak of hate and violence towards trans people, and yet the only people I've seen reacting in a hateful and violent way in the wake of the judgment are trans activists.

Perhaps show her some of the photos of trans activists protesting, threatening to kill TERFs and throw piss everywhere, and then ask her if she is aware of any equivalent behaviour from gender critical feminists.

Perhaps ask her why she thinks it's OK for her to decide that female rape survivors and Muslim and Jewish women should be OK sharing their single sex spaces with biological males, just because she is OK with it.

Perhaps ask her if her opinion would change if her own daughter suffered the same fate as Katie Dolatowski's 10 year old victim while her dad was obediently waiting outside because he knows that he can't go into women's toilets even to keep his daughter safe.

Perhaps none of this stuff is actually helpful for you to get through to your daughter but I'm just so, so sick of this. It's just wilful ignorance at this stage. I'm so sick of all the handmaidens who are so stupid that they can't see past the end of their own, overprivileged noses.

Maybe for the best. Like others, I would agree to disagree, and point out that your relationship with her is more important than that argument. Then never mention it again.

She will come round.

Of course, being abusive isn’t ok to anyone.

but believing that your children thinks differently to you because they’ve go to a ‘woke university’ or similar is naive and insulting.

Rational people are surprised by irrational people. Children are very welcome to "thoughts of their own" that are evidence based and can therefore be defended in sensible conversation. Being abusive to your parent because you know your belief is irrational is never acceptable.

I do really feel for people who have very painfully been cut off from family members and friends over this, simply because many on the gender ideology side can’t agree to disagree. I’m lucky that my DS can. In my experience it has always been the gender-critical/feminist person who would be happy to keep debating and listening but the genderist who cuts them off for being a “bigot” or “anti-trans”. Having said that, it’s painful for both sides - if you really believe your parent of friend is a bigot akin to a racist or homophobe and end your relationship with them, that must be horribly painful too.

I do think there will eventually be reconciliations for some, but it will take time.

What’s wrong with it is that people are assuming their children can’t have any thoughts of their own. And that you must be right and they only disagree with you because they’ve been conditioned by outside sources.

no thought for the fact that you could be wrong, or conditioned by your surrounding influences.

It gives off very “silly little girl doesn’t know what she means” vibes.

I feel your pain OP, I’ve had arguments like this with my adult DS, though we’ve agreed to try to avoid the subject so we can get on. It’s not just that he’s well-educated and been brought up having sexism and the harms of restrictive gender roles pointed out to him - it’s also that he is a very logical, analytical person who can usually sort fact and reason from incoherent nonsense on any topic.

But he grew up through the worst of gender ideology being pushed at school, and he has deeply absorbed the idea that “gender” as a self-perception matters more than sex, and that trans-iding people are without exception poor, sad, marginalised, persecuted lovely harmless souls. (Despite the clear evidence that self-ID is a loophole for predatory men) I have explained the harms to women and the logical inconsistency so many times but he will say I’m just “anti-trans”. It’s baffling that he can’t see through it. That if “woman” doesn’t mean biological woman then it has no meaning at all, it just means anyone.

And I do try to listen and get his POV too but it’s just if you feel like a woman then you are, or at least should be treated as one so you’re not sad. There’s no convincing reasoning. The same doesn’t apply to other biological categories because `’that’s different”.

His wokebro dad (my ex) is the same.

But my teen DD is having none of it, she just rants “it’s SO fucking sexist” for womanhood to be seen as anything other than biological. And she is not academic at all and not analytical like my DS, she’s very emotional and instinctive. I’m happy that I’m not at odds with both DC and that my DD appears to be a materialist feminist off her own bat - but still amazed that anyone with any critical thinking ability at all can toe this line, and really think that disagreeing with it is about being “anti-trans”.

@Pipsquiggle I wonder whether they were properly treated and/or supported through all the other susceptibilities and comorbidities before surgery was considered? I still can’t imagine any situation where we would give somebody suffering from anorexia a course of ozempic to make them feel better.

from the study; “Transgender individuals are also at increased susceptibility for various suicide risk-enhancing factors, as a growing body of literature suggests that transgender individuals face a high burden of chronic health conditions [16,17], psychiatric illnesses and their comorbidities [18-20], substance use [21], trauma and victimization [20,22-24], and housing and employment discrimination [25].”

Sorry, I think you're missing my point. “Trans” people like Isla Bryson only have a shit time growing up because it’s of their own making, because THEY ARE NOT REALLY TRANS. Any data relating to trans is pretty inconclusive because you cannot definitively confirm it only relates to people with extreme body dysmorphia or dysphoria, some may just be what we used to call transvestites (put on a costume, will never make changes to lifestyle or body modification) or just autogynophiliacs. Isla Bryson demanding space in a women’s prison despite raping a woman with “her” penis, men with penises and beards demanding access to women’s bathrooms, men with penises competing against women in sport; these are not “trans” women, they are misogynists and it makes my blood boil that we are being gaslighted in to “being kind” to them.

No, the expression predates Jonestown by a decade. It came from an article by Tom Wolfe about Ken Kesey.

Btw, the overwhelming majority of victims didn't drink the squash. They were killed by gunshot wounds, most of them in the back as they ran for the jungle. Doesn't make for as good a story, though.

https://archive.org/details/electrickoolaida0000wolf/page/n7/mode/2up

@usernamealreadytaken I have a family member who is a psychiatrist who did a stint on a gender reassignment ward. They said that a staggeringly high % of people had tried to commit suicide before they got to the gender reassignment surgery

Hmm my post above is totally incoherent. Sorry, thinking about too many things at once.

Honestly, some battles are just not worth fighting. You think what your views are now and what they were when you were 25. The world moves on, and so will our children x

That was since what happened in universities. It's rare now, unfortunately.

Mutual respect and reciprocity is integral in ANY relationship. If you accept contempt from your daughter, then you did indeed fail in the way you brought her up.