Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please hold my hand. My daughter has drunk the koolaid, and I’m more upset & angry than I think I have ever been. (SC ruling)

285 replies

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:08

This will be long, so I apologise in advance. I find myself in a grey area between radfems and woke-maidens. I don’t hate trans people, I don’t hate anyone, although as a woman in my 50s I’ve had enough male fuckwittery in my life to have a very low opinion of men in general. I do believe that there are some people with such intense dysphoria that counselling and support are not enough and surgical transition is their best solution, but I don’t believe anyone can change sex, or is born in the wrong body.

That said, I detest gender stereotypes and the confusion of sex & gender, I’m the generation of women that fought really hard on a day to day level to reject these stupid made up rules about what girls can and can’t do/wear/think, and seeing the ‘men in a dress’ become accepted as that meaning they are women is a huge step backwards, and it makes me furious.

I honestly don’t care who wears what, if a man wants to wear dresses and make up, that’s fine. I’ve spent the last 15-20 years in t-shirts and jeans, no make up etc, so I don’t see why men can’t wear skirts if they want to. As Eddie Izzard used to say, they aren’t women’s clothes, they are my clothes. (So disappointed that Eddie has now claimed to be Suzie)

I am not a dress.

I genuinely don’t care about sharing spaces like toilets, it’s possible to create safe unisex toilets, the focus on this is a distraction and needs to stop. But when men claim to identify as women and skew crime statistics, that bothers me. Men who claim to identify as women and try to insist that lesbians should date them, that’s controlling and gross. Hospital wards and bays are segregated for a reason, and demanding we use she/her pronouns doesn’t mean a man should be put in a bed in a women’s bay. Same with any communal changing area, be it the gym or a shop fitting room. Women don’t have a penis, it’s really that simple.

This morning the SC ruling was mentioned briefly and my adult daughter is furious with it. She claims it’s a step backwards, that it will cause hate crimes and violence towards trans people, that anyone who supports it is a hateful bigot and wishes harm on a vulnerable minority. I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed, only clarified, and that trans people haven’t lost any rights, nor will any MtF prisoners be immediately transferred to male prisons to be raped and murdered by the other prisoners. Women aren’t going to be randomly strip-searched by male police officers who will claim they thought it was a man, etc. She just refuses to believe that women’s safe spaces need to be just for actual biological women, because she believes trans women don’t pose a threat, and even when I explained that most trans identifying MtF don’t have surgery etc and are still fully functioning males, and showed her examples of MtF assaulting women, she won’t accept that the actions of these men mean that we should be able to hold safe spaces based on biology. I tried to explain that I understand that trans people are vulnerable to hate crimes etc, and that we need to take steps to keep them safe, but not at the expense of women. We’ve had a long and very heated argument where she has accused me of being a bigot and a bunch of other incredibly hurtful things, mostly by refusing to accept that there is a toxic sub-set of (mostly MtF) TRAs that are actually autogynephiles/INCELs with misogyny at their core, and that these people threaten actual physical harm to anyone (like JKR) who dares to question their claims of womanhood.

Help me. Help me find a way to reach her. She’s an intelligent educated young woman who has been raised with feminist values, I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life, with no expectations or limitations based on her sex. I’m genuinely appalled to hear this garbage coming from her.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Mumble12 · 19/04/2025 14:38

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 19/04/2025 13:22

I also used to have "debates" about this with DS1which when threatened to turn into an argument I backed off, I didn't feel it worth falling out with my children and knew that it was social suicide for them to espouse my views.
DS1 has now come over to my way of thinking and as a gay man is exposed to a lot of this more than I am.
DS2 is at a v woke University so I don't expect him to agree with me but hopeful that sanity or common sense will prevail when he is older.
As @TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack says he knows my views .

It might not be that its social suicide to espouse your views...it might just be that they don't agree with you.

NineLivesKat · 19/04/2025 14:35

They will need to move MtF prisoners though, won’t they?

mainecooncatonahottinroof · 19/04/2025 14:35

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 19/04/2025 14:17

I’m sorry OP, it is hard to see in young women - it’s like they don’t seem to know they’re being used as the useful idiots in this game.

I also note a definite thread of ageism in their dismissal and denigration of older people (women mainly), which is sad but not surprising.
Young people never think they will get old.

Just leave things settle down, hopefully she will come out the other side.

My DDs act like I am a dinosaur in matters like this - but wasn't it always the same? Didn't we in our turn think our parents hadn't got a clue? I just avoid any discussion because it's pointless. They'll mature in the end.

Same as a work colleague I've become friends when she happened to say she thinks Trump is doing great things in the US!!! I didn't expect that but I just changed the subject, and said I feel the complete opposite so it was best if we didn't talk about him!

Rainbowpug · 19/04/2025 14:34

Op
I'm the same age as you with a 26 year old daughter
We absolutely can't even go near this subject
She has exactly the same views as your daughter,and the only way to keep peace in our family is to not discuss it .
It feels to me like
It's a generation against generation thing
But hasn't that always been the case between generations ,the young people of the 1960s wanting the sexual freedom their parents were horrified at .
I see the situation a bit like that
So I just keep my views to myself around her and other young people

MyrtleLion · 19/04/2025 14:33

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:42

Her reasoning was that we should accept trans women into our spaces so that they are safe. She couldn’t/wouldn’t accept that the fact that some of those fully male bodied trans women pose a threat to women means that we needs a third space. He argument was those third spaces don’t exist so we need to keep them with women, and that segregation is wrong

Then ask her to show you the campaigns by the trans community for third spaces or even spaces that keep them safe rather than the hatred and violence shown to women when we want to speak.

And ask her then why she can't find them.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/04/2025 14:28

The thing that flipped me from being TWAW into not was realising there was an impossible disconnect between believing TWAW and also believing, as I strongly did and still do, that womens minds are not bar the effects of socialisation particularly different capability-wise to mens, and certainly not different enough to explain the vast differences in social opportunities, choices, power and outcomes.

So maybe if there's a good opportunity, rather than talking about trans issues specifcally just ask her if she thinks there is a significant difference between how men and women think? Might open a crack for her to start thinking critically, might just be an interesting conversation where you and she learn a bit more about some things you may have taken for granted the other other believes.

MerlinsBeard1 · 19/04/2025 14:27

'I have modelled non-stereotypical behaviours and given her complete freedom to choose her direction in life'

There you have it then.

Lovelyview · 19/04/2025 14:26

Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 14:18

I don't think the problem is that they're disagreeing over an issue, it's the way OPs daughter is refusing to engage in any meaningful way.

It is dissapointing when as a feminist mother your daughter strongly supports a view that is at odds with what you believe in. When they refuse to engage with evidence and see you as the enemy, it's very dissapointing.

But of course we still love our daughters, we just hope they'll be more open to evidence and not retreat to emotion.

Not talking about it helps - my daughter doesn't talk to me about this anymore, but isn't as dogmatic anymore if I refer to an obviously female non-binaru person as 'her' rather than 'they'.

So when I said I didn't think Emma Corbin was the right actress to play Elizabeth Bennet, as I thought she was usually to intense in roles and wouldn't portray rhe lightness of Eluzabeth, I wasn't corrected, as I would have been a few years ago.

OP, there are lots of us in this situation, please keep the faith, our kids do start to question it as they mature. At least they're coming to the cause with good intentions, to stick up for the underdog.

That's a good point. Our dd's point of view is coming from a position of kindness and sympathy, believing they are supporting a marginalised group. That they don't understand that women in prisons and rape crisis centres are the most vulnerable and marginalised of all is unfortunate but maybe over time they'll see the wider picture. I think detransitioners will also have an effect on this co-hort over time.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 19/04/2025 14:24

This is a generational clash. Young people have always been at odds with their parents over social issues.

Imo, it's not worth falling out with family over. Don't be more upset and angry than you've ever been, OP! You are both allowed your views, and you have to remember that your DD is absolutely marinated in those views via her peer group. Rowling has had just the same with the three Potter actors. Generational differences. I do wonder if JK has the same issues with her kids that you're having with your DD.

Pigeon31 · 19/04/2025 14:23

She's a liberal feminist. You don't have to agree with her on everything but you should be proud of having raised a daughter who is willing to stand up for her beliefs, which are no less valid than yours.

Also we prefer liberal feminist to woke maiden, thx.

Viviennemary · 19/04/2025 14:23

TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 19/04/2025 13:11

Stop trying to reach her. She’s captured and won’t listen. But the tide is turning and she might change her mind as it does.

l sympathise, my adult kids disagreed with me for ages on this but have sinc3 come round and now even send me GC memes. There is hope!

Don't bother. Let her carry on with her opinions.

Genevieva · 19/04/2025 14:23

Honestly? My advice is that you don't return to this issue. Neither of you have any power over it and it has the capacity to destroy your relationship, so bury it.

To the extent that you want to be 'armed' here are a few pieces of food for thought:

  1. The term transwoman has been used as a generic catch all for too wide a group of people. That includes the vulnerable people with gender dysphoria who your daughter is concerned about, but it also includes criminals who have been able to hide in plain sight under this term in order to access women's spaces and commit crimes. The clarity given by the Supreme Court this week will make it easier to protect all vulnerable people - children, women and those with gender dysphoria.
  2. The English Common Law system is based on the interpretation of a reasonable person. The judgment itself follows this pattern and is extremely reasonable. It is possible she has read secondhand articles about it that have twisted the words of the judgment to elicit an emotive response in the reader that isn't warranted.
  3. Based on current data c.20% of men,c. 5% of women and c.75% of transwomen in prison are there for convictions related to violent sexual crimes.
Catlady63 · 19/04/2025 14:18

Seventree · 19/04/2025 14:04

You and your daughter both feel differently about an issue. It's not the end of the world or worth falling out over.

Imagine one of you found out you were seriously ill tomorrow. Would you still care which loos your daughter thinks trans people should be allowed to use?

I don't think the problem is that they're disagreeing over an issue, it's the way OPs daughter is refusing to engage in any meaningful way.

It is dissapointing when as a feminist mother your daughter strongly supports a view that is at odds with what you believe in. When they refuse to engage with evidence and see you as the enemy, it's very dissapointing.

But of course we still love our daughters, we just hope they'll be more open to evidence and not retreat to emotion.

Not talking about it helps - my daughter doesn't talk to me about this anymore, but isn't as dogmatic anymore if I refer to an obviously female non-binaru person as 'her' rather than 'they'.

So when I said I didn't think Emma Corbin was the right actress to play Elizabeth Bennet, as I thought she was usually to intense in roles and wouldn't portray rhe lightness of Eluzabeth, I wasn't corrected, as I would have been a few years ago.

OP, there are lots of us in this situation, please keep the faith, our kids do start to question it as they mature. At least they're coming to the cause with good intentions, to stick up for the underdog.

Lovelyview · 19/04/2025 14:17

My dd and I don't agree on this. Following a heated debate when I misgendered Caster Semenya we don't really discuss it any more. I remember having heated debates with my Dad about nuclear power (he pro, me anti) I'm sorry that he died before I could say I now agree with him. However, we didn't not love and respect each other even if we disagreed about things. I think the dangers of trans ideology are very clear but my DD has non binary and trans identifying friends. I do understand why young women put their critical thinking on hold in relation to this topic. Hopefully they will think more critically over time. Don't lose your dd over this op and don't take the disagreement personally even if she said unkind things in the heat of the moment.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 19/04/2025 14:17

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

I’m sorry OP, it is hard to see in young women - it’s like they don’t seem to know they’re being used as the useful idiots in this game.

I also note a definite thread of ageism in their dismissal and denigration of older people (women mainly), which is sad but not surprising.
Young people never think they will get old.

Just leave things settle down, hopefully she will come out the other side.

Terrribletwos · 19/04/2025 14:14

MarvellousMonsters · 19/04/2025 13:45

@Catlady63 I do feel like I’ve failed. And the level of contempt and disrespect in the way she spoke to me was awful.

Well, I think that's the problem. She has spoken to you with contempt..where is this coming from?

I can disagree with my kids on this matter but they do not treat me with contempt.

tothesea · 19/04/2025 14:12

I think the anger and disrespect comes from knowing deep down your argument is flawed.
DS1 called me a bigot when discussing this issue. I asked him ‘What is the purpose of single sex spaces, why do they exist?’ Having already given him the MOJ stats it seemed that question got to the nub of the issue and he couldn’t argue it …so I got called a bigot. I was very upset and when we both had calmed down I told him we would have to agree to disagree but that I did not accept his accusations of bigotry, my aim is to protect women and children.
It is very upsetting OP ..I understand how you feel.

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 14:09

I agree with PPs advising you just leave her be for the moment.

if you have to discuss it with her, I would ask her if she’s actually read the judgment, and ask what specifically she disagreed with.

The Scottish government were arguing that trans people with GRCs are women but trans people without GRCs are men - is she ok with treating self-IDing trans people (who perhaps can’t afford the GRC process) to be treated as second-class citizens compared to people with a piece of paper? How would that be fair?

The vast majority of trans women would still have been deemed men under the Equality Act even if the Scottish government had won, as they had already conceded that point before the SC case.

So many people upset about the ruling seem to think the opposite ruling would have been that TWAW, but that wasn’t even on the table as an option.

BadSkiingMum · 19/04/2025 14:08

Perhaps she will wake up when she gives birth?

Christwosheds · 19/04/2025 14:06

Arran2024 · 19/04/2025 13:22

Sadly she is captured, as so many young people are. Did she go to uni? My daughters didn't and I know many young people who didn't, including two nephews and a niece. They all think gender ideology is crazy. Meanwhile my 3 nephews who did go to uni are fully on board, along with friends' children who also attended.

And so I believe this is as much a class issue as anything else. It is one of the views you are supposed to hold to show you belong to the elite, educated tribe - or aspire to be part of it.

Only they have the intelligence to understand trans rights - the rest of us (especially mums) are too parochial, too old fashioned, too conservative, too stupid to see it.

It's a matter of zeitgeist. Hopefully it will drop off and they will move on to something else.

I agree with this. There is definitely a class element.
I disagree with you op though on unisex loos. Unisex toilets and changing rooms are not safe, and it isn’t possible to make them safe as far as I can tell. More women are assaulted in unisex facilities. Cubicles off a corridor, thought of as safe, can be really dangerous as a man can go into a cubicle and pull in a girl or woman. Unisex changing rooms unless they open directly onto a communal and staffed space, pose the same problem. Loos need door gaps for safely, but that makes it easy for a man to slide a ‘phone underneath.

AliBaliBee1234 · 19/04/2025 14:05

You both just need to respect each others opinion. You don't agree on this. So what?

Seventree · 19/04/2025 14:04

You and your daughter both feel differently about an issue. It's not the end of the world or worth falling out over.

Imagine one of you found out you were seriously ill tomorrow. Would you still care which loos your daughter thinks trans people should be allowed to use?

PrettyDamnCosmic · 19/04/2025 14:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MarieDeGournay · 19/04/2025 14:03

I'm leaving it at that, MarvellousMonsters, I hope I've said something useful in my posts. I hope you and your DD meet each other as two adult human females over a cuppa one of these days; until then, maybe avoid the topic altogether?
You came for a handhold, and I hope you feel you've got thatSmile
Sending good wishes Flowers

discocherry · 19/04/2025 14:02

I actually agree with everything you’ve said and don’t feel like your views are particularly extreme in the slightest. I find it upsetting when people are hateful and incredibly black and white about this issue and you clearly aren’t like that.

My mum and I have different views on this in some regards and we ever do chat about it, we just communicate with each other without trying to change each other’s minds. We’re obviously both grown women so it’s different but I’m actually not sure I’d be discussing this with your DD much if I were you, especially not at a time like this when emotions are running high in the wake of the ruling.