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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do I handle this?!

89 replies

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 00:09

Full disclosure, had a couple of wines.

Out for a drink with eldest DD and DD3, who had more than a couple. She decided, whilst obviously drunk, to have an all out "I am not a woman, I am a man, my pronouns are he him, does that mean you wont love me anymore?" She is 20. Eldest DD (27) tried to rein it in, as did I because its not a good time to have that kind of conversation.

I said that I would always love her but I said that I would probably forget her new chosen name and will almost certainly call her by her birth name, but thats not out of disrespect but from habit. She was fine with that, but then went on a rant about JK. She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science". Then she said "Do you believe in my choice or JK?!!!" and I said "I respect your choice. But you know I believe in womens rights". She started saying "Then you dont love me" and I said (I was calm, took a lot of effort) "I am not being emotionally blackmailed" and left.

What do I do now?

ETA that I realised that I said "I believe in womens rights" and that when she lost it

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2025 08:48

Maybe you can use that book review as a starting point? Ask her if that’s the book she wants you to read, and then take this bit :
Butler makes a few obligatory remarks about the importance of continuing the conversation, about the need to listen to one another, about the dangers of shutting people down. “We cannot censor each other’s positions just because we do not want to hear them,”

and see if she’ll take that invitation to a civil discussion with you.

If she is willing to engage rather than carry on the emotional blackmail, you could pehaps say that from reading that, it doesn’t sound like butler understands the huge differences between the U.K. and the US. That we’ve just had a clarification of an existing law and the judgment is crystal clear that both sex and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. That the judgment specifically was concerned to protect lesbians. To protect maternity rights for transmen. And that there is no link in the U.K. between the women defending women’s rights to single sex services and the erosion of reproductive rights - feminists here aren’t anti-choice!

Gettingmadderallthetime · 19/04/2025 07:03

Has she been sitting on this 'great truth' for a while and blurted it out now because of the Supreme Court news? s there any way you could get her to read something in exchange for you reading Butler? Something that will show her the damage done by TRAs pushing gender ideology? Something that could make her see that fighting for women's rights is not anti trans?

Is she at university? Living at home?

Hoping you can navigate this. Somehow she is seeing you and women's rights as a monster that she is bravely standing up to. When full of Dutch courage and without discussion.

woollyhatter · 19/04/2025 02:24

FFS tiny phone fat fingers and it is late…
..two steps back a lot but maybe going ok let me read some Butler let’s walk this road together a while.

You can shred Butler look at my other posts as I have opinions but it is not the time or place for those arguments.

My other half tried that and it got her baddie status when arguments evolved entirely based on rational statements followed by teen wailing, but you do not understand me!!. I accepted that I am not dealing with an entirely rational being (isn’t only at age 23 when we have the most control of our pre frontal cortex?) and soothing the emotional beast first was the priority and we left and shelved discussions until we were both in a place of calm.

Frankly it is not an easy path to stay calm and not mirror their anger or distress but doing everything you can to slowdown the emotional train wreck down is a starting point to more constructive conversations.

I have had to say to my kiddo yes there are days I get frustrated with you, I have low capacity for nonsense but never doubt I love your fiercely and I may get mad but you can always have a hug when you need it. I want above all for you to be kinder to yourself so you can judge others less harshly and somedays that includes me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2025 02:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2025 01:57

She doesn’t want people to get along though, she wants women to STFU.

I meant Butler, not OP’s DD, for the avoidance of doubt.

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 02:12

SquashedMallow · 19/04/2025 00:23

She's been indoctrinated.

Tale as old as time. Group gets member, group starts gently massaging in "new think", then gets a bit more divisive and aggressive with it. It becomes a "them" and "us".

Any concern or challenging of the "new think" becomes "they hate us" .

I'd points this out to your DD.

Edited

She was going on about Them and Us, as a societal and philosphical concept, whilst missing the irony.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2025 01:57

She doesn’t want people to get along though, she wants women to STFU.

woollyhatter · 19/04/2025 01:56

Oh hon. You did really well to say calm under some really hard circumstances where you are on the receiving end of severe emotional blackmailing.

Not quite the same circs but this has worked for me. I have a teen who is liable to binary and then catastrophic thinking. Their self esteem took a massive hit and manifests as body dismorphia of the more conventional but nonetheless heartbreaking kind.

I have worked really hard to tell her that yes puberty absolutely sucks to the max, the messaging around what it means to be a girl is so much worse than when I was young. And also told her I have had periods of emotional dis regulation that have resulted in mental health illness. By recognising her vulnerability and talking honestly about my own it open a pathway based on some steps of mutual recognition. I see your pain- I recognise it. Mine is from a different place but emotional distress is appalling.

From there it was possible to raise her curiosity about how I dealt with my own emotional dis-regulation. We call it that as it helps to frame it less negatively which can in itself set off cycles of shame.

The danger in entirely intellectualising an argument is that we cannot then properly deal with the underlying emotional distress which is still there and needs resolving.

She has begun to ask me how I dealt with my own pain and I said the first part was to try not to act it out. For me, it meant self soothing engaging my senses, observing my emotions but not to act them out my hurting myself or others.

We were able to talk about dialectical behaviourial therapy Martha Linehan was a leading proponent.

Edited as accidentally hit the post button early.

I have speculated that some of these positions taken up by the younger generation has been a response to really difficult messaging they are seeing from contemporary society about what it means to be a woman. Impossible unachievable standards and it is the fashionable means to opt out without losing friends. Unfortunately, any challenges to their means of opt out can result in my way or the highway reactions as otherwise they fear social isolation from their peer group. Railing against parents is safer for them.

So my talking about my own vulnerabilities and saying sweetheart you are okay to feel distress but how you are dealing with it might not be the most healthy means and here is an alternative helps.

Our relationship is still a work in progress we go three steps forward and two steps back a l

LuckyAzureBird · 19/04/2025 01:55

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 01:18

Just got this

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I am not sure that sobering up will change anything. She is fiece and determined.

I am heartbroken.

I don't think your daughter is encouraging you to read the dense academic works. Their latest work is their first non-academic book, there's a review here with a title and subtitle that may be relevant to the situation at hand :)

https://archive.is/TrNIJ - Archived link of NYT review

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2025 01:22

Im sorry 💐 I must admit I am boggling at the idea of anyone reaching greater understanding through reading Judith Butler though.

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 01:18

Just got this

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I am not sure that sobering up will change anything. She is fiece and determined.

I am heartbroken.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2025 00:37

Hopefully she’ll realise she was being a childish twit tomorrow when she’s sobered up.

Myalternate · 19/04/2025 00:35

Wait for her to sober up.

SquashedMallow · 19/04/2025 00:23

She's been indoctrinated.

Tale as old as time. Group gets member, group starts gently massaging in "new think", then gets a bit more divisive and aggressive with it. It becomes a "them" and "us".

Any concern or challenging of the "new think" becomes "they hate us" .

I'd points this out to your DD.

Retiredfromthere · 19/04/2025 00:18

I don't have anything helpful to say except that you are clearly a loving mother. I hope she realises that soonest.

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