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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do I handle this?!

89 replies

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 00:09

Full disclosure, had a couple of wines.

Out for a drink with eldest DD and DD3, who had more than a couple. She decided, whilst obviously drunk, to have an all out "I am not a woman, I am a man, my pronouns are he him, does that mean you wont love me anymore?" She is 20. Eldest DD (27) tried to rein it in, as did I because its not a good time to have that kind of conversation.

I said that I would always love her but I said that I would probably forget her new chosen name and will almost certainly call her by her birth name, but thats not out of disrespect but from habit. She was fine with that, but then went on a rant about JK. She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science". Then she said "Do you believe in my choice or JK?!!!" and I said "I respect your choice. But you know I believe in womens rights". She started saying "Then you dont love me" and I said (I was calm, took a lot of effort) "I am not being emotionally blackmailed" and left.

What do I do now?

ETA that I realised that I said "I believe in womens rights" and that when she lost it

OP posts:
GallantKumquat · 03/07/2025 02:55

Not really advice on what to say, but a few of observations:

Firstly debating about gender and engaging in Butler's critical theory is a fruitless venture. Butler's style of post-modernism is specifically aimed at denying objective truth by applying the operation of deconstruction. If there's anything that it's good at, it's circumventing productive discussion to arrive at a shared understanding of reality, i.e. the ordinary endpoint of what most would consider a useful discussion.

Secondly, there's no sense in trying to resolve scientific, philosophical or political differences with DC. Setting aside the specifics of the disagreement, the next generation needs to stake positions different from their predecessors in order to define themselves – which, btw, is also compatible with Butler's theory of meaning. All parent-child relationships ever have had to accommodate this truth.

Thirdly it's unreasonable and, frankly, offensive for DD to insist that you change your beliefs to accommodate her. (Perhaps it would be unwise to put it in quite that way.) No one thinks this is a justifiable demand. Or even practicable. One is only able to believe something when one has been persuaded by evidence and the validity of an argument. Normal people can't just flip a switch and believe something on demand. (Again perhaps it would be unwise to so directly imply that your DD's demands are abnormal, since she very well might be able to flip a switch to believe the impossible!) What she is in practice asking of you is to lie to her and say you have been persuaded when you haven't. You're refusing to do that, because it's unfair and unhealthy to your DD(!) to engage in this kind of dishonesty. Wouldn't it be much better, you could say, that you simply agree to disagree and establish parameters that won't trigger your daughter?

As for those parameters - you might might offer that, provided you are convinced she does not truly believe she can change her sex, you're willing to cheerfully use new names and pronouns even though it's an imposition. You will not actually believe DD has changed 'genders'; so her part of bargain is to not put you in a position where you have to explicitly state your beliefs and perceptions of her. You could ask her if there are certain gender rituals and performances that would help her be more comfortable. Also that you're willing to avoid certain topics she finds distressing like JKR; for example putting her works in a room where your daughter isn't likely to see them if they're displayed on a bookcase in the living-room. Being willing to make superficial accommodations and genuinely, thoughtfully attending to the minutia (so long as you can manage to avoid being patronizing) might go some ways to underscore the absurdity of the situation and lead DD to reconsider her choices at a future time when the acute emotionalism of the topic subside.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 03/07/2025 02:39

I think you've been handling this much better than I have handled my similar situation, but there is no way of "getting it right" from a trans perspective, as any disagreement or questioning is framed as hatred. Much sympathy from me, it's a horrible experience. 💐

I just hope that eventually my son will understand and accept that my love for him cannot override my understanding, and also that I can't see him as he wants me to see him, but only as I do see him. It seems that his generation is so wedded to their cultural understanding that they cannot handle my generation having a different culture. They demand that we discard all our insights and beliefs, built up over decades (two or three times their life experience!), and substitute for them their incoherent gender identity worldview.

The idea seems to be that I must change my worldview completely and instantly, discarding all the experiences that have informed it, because his worldview says mine is bigoted. My worldview doesn't demand that he changes his, but it does question it. I worry constantly about the potential consequences of his worldview, both to him and to everyone who is negatively impacted, especially women because his ideology seems to me to be inherently misogynistic though he can't see that.

It is interesting that he has refused, or perhaps is unable, to articulate his position; and at the same time, he sees my attempt to articulate my position, which I made in the hope of him recognising some common ground, as me trying to detransition him.

PyongyangKipperbang · 03/07/2025 01:37

Thank you both.

I am feeling very alone at the moment. I do appreciate your posts xx

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 03/07/2025 01:34

oh @PyongyangKipperbang i feel
very sad for you both reading this.

it sounds to me as if she is communicating ‘I love you, I need you’ but is struggling to understand her own feelings and communication. She will no doubt have heard about people who say they have cut contact with family members or friends with ‘unacceptable’ views. She can’t do that/ doesn’t want to do that (quite rightly) but is struggling with being someone who loves her mum more than she loves the Right Opinions, because those people aren’t ok in the material she is reading. Or the only way they can be ok for her to stay in touch with is if she tries to ‘educate’ them every time.

It sounds so exhausting for both of you. I am part way through reading Who’s Afraid of Gender which is also exhausting and not in a good way. Can’t recommend it. Though I’d agree that I probably do read Butler like I read the Bible, in that I find reading the Bible completely unconvincing as well.

MarieDeGournay · 03/07/2025 01:00

As usual in these cases, I'm useless for advice, Pyongyang, but I'm always ready with a Flowers for a broken heart - I hope you and your daughter find yourselves in a better and closer place soon. Or eventually - it may take time but hopefully time is all that's needed to make things better.
Flowers

PyongyangKipperbang · 03/07/2025 00:15

Update. Not a happy one.

I work in the pub trade so DD knows I am up late. She called me at 0130 yesterday. Said she was "finally ready to talk to me about what happened".

Started well enough (when I have seen her since at my parents, I acted like nothing had happened and was as loving and kind as she allowed me to be). She is staying at her dads again this summer, as a result of what happened at Easter.

Not sure if she had had a drink but if she had she wasnt drunk like last time.

It was all respectful and nice until I asked a question that (with hindsight) took a crowbar to a small crack in her argument and forced it wide open. She said something about respecting the rights of trans people as the most important thing and I asked whether that should mean that the rights of everyone else, regardless of sex, gender, age etc should be put second to that. She simply couldnt cope with the idea that she might need to question what she has accepted as fact. So she went off on one again. Shouting, crying, saying I obviously didnt love her.

I offered to go to independent counselling with her. I said that we obviously cant communicate very well so that might help. She had hung up on me at that point and texted that she would do that as long as I was prepared to change my political views and that she knows where we can go. I said that no, I wasnt going to "help my mum accept my gender" counselling, but relationship counselling that was focussed on communication and not the gender issue. She said she would but again that I must accept changing my view.

And thats when the penny dropped.

I think that deep down she knows that her views arent as bullet proof as she claims they are. She needs something to cling to and as long as I wont back her up with that, she cant cling to it at all. Every time we talk I expose something that she doesnt want to acknowledge. I think it comes down to her wanting my approval for this and I wont give it and that means she is floating free with no anchor. The anchor she thought she had, the TRA movement, isnt solid and she knows she cant cling to it.

Ex will say "yes dear" about anything....path of least resistance. But she knows that he has no views, doesnt care and wont approve or disapprove. She needs my approval as it means that I really do approve and not just say the words.

If I say I approve then it must be ok. And I dont. So everytime I say I dont she shuts me down as she isnt in a place to consider that I might have a point. She has a course leader at uni that she talked to about it (described her as a "65 year old Welsh woman who takes no shit!") and her CL said that it sounded like I had thought through my own views on this and that perhaps DD should think about why I came to the views I had considering my age and experiences in life.

Heart is still broken.

But I am committed to trying to sort this, if only to have a relationship with her in some sense.

OP posts:
WarriorN · 23/04/2025 12:16

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

the NIPT tests is now available on the nhs. It wasnt when I was pregnant though but I paid for it as I’d had a couple of miscarriages. I had it at 10 weeks pregnant.

I don’t think the nhs allows the full test which shows sex, but mine was. It screens for all types of genetic issues, trisomies, including dsds such as xxy, XO etc. there’s a long list that comes back.

All the genetic information that has a y in it indicated a male. Xxxy xy xxy are all male.

when you blithely state that these are variations of a sex spectrum, they’re not. They’re conditions and disorders of development which can often result in learning difficulties and health issues.

its really offensive to bring these ideas into debates around trans.

NotmeMother · 23/04/2025 12:09

This is going to go against all your instincts but this absolutely worked for me (not this ideology but something pretty huge). My son (about 22 at the time) did something similar to me, I told him my stance, said I loved him and would always be there for him but I would not be emotionally blackmailed into agreeing with him.

He shut me out for a few months then he called me out of the blue. We had a chat and it was going well, we both apologised for bits that we felt we should to get back to our loving place. He then started going down the old path and I stopped him. I told him that he obviously hadn't given the situation enough thought and that I was still not going to be up for emotional blackmail and to call me back when he could have a grown up conversation. I put the phone down on him (that really hurt, I cried).

He called me back a few hours later, slightly inebriated and we talked and laughed and loved for 4 hours. We have never looked back.

I think the moral of my story is that sometimes you need to stand up to bullies even if they're yours and you love them with all your might. They learn a great lesson about respect!

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 11:29

dlob · 23/04/2025 10:58

I'm sorry you didn't understand. Apologies. You mention being a STEM graduate; do you think that's relevant to why? (I'm a STEM graduate myself btw.)

I wonder if you might let me know where it started to go wrong? The very beginning, about the notion of a transcendental argument? Or when, if later?

Please don’t misunderstand us - the comment was on the incomprehensibility of Butler, not your attempt to clarify it for us.

dlob · 23/04/2025 10:58

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:20

Your explanation is still, to this STEM graduate, a wall of utter incomprehensibility.

I'm sorry you didn't understand. Apologies. You mention being a STEM graduate; do you think that's relevant to why? (I'm a STEM graduate myself btw.)

I wonder if you might let me know where it started to go wrong? The very beginning, about the notion of a transcendental argument? Or when, if later?

dlob · 23/04/2025 10:56

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

Thinking about basic science ...

I wonder if you know mammals are sexually dimorphic and produce exclusively two discrete gamete types?

And I wonder how you think that bit of basic science connects with your basic schooling about chromosomes?

Hmm?

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2025 10:12

I'd also point out that if I hated her and didn't support her, why would I continue to support her financially? Equally if her principles are that important, why is she happy to continue taking your financial support? Ultimately you both love each other deep down and she knows you do but sometimes its harder to admit that more than you'd like. Its ok to disagree. You can disagree and still love someone. Your differences of opinion don't make either of you bad people. You are both good people who are concerned about different things for different reasons.

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2025 10:06

The problem is she has a closed mind and isn't likely to open it.

She been indoctrinated. This means you need to treat it like shes in a cult.

The best deprogramming strategy isn't to challenge her head on, but to ask questions.

So when she says "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me", you ask, "why is it a choice between her and you? JK is never going to be a consideration in how I feel about my child, why are you seeking to make it? Why is this a binary choice? Just because you believe something, you can't force others to believe it. It doesn't mean they love you less. Thats silly. You making it a binary choice between someone I've never met and you isn't a fair judgement to make. Why are you suddenly valuing your principles more than the people who care most about you? Why do you want to throw that away? Why can't you understand that people can still love you even when they on't always agree. You know me very well - do you think I'm a bad person? Do you think I've suddenly changed and hate everyone? Again thats silly. You know me better than that. I'm not about to hurt anyone am I? Why are you assuming the worse in me all of a sudden rather than remembering just how much I love you? Are you trying to push me away because I'm the biggest reminder of your past? I can't help that unfortunately - thats beyond my control. Unfortunately none of us can run away from where we come from and our lived experiences no matter how much we might want to

Do you believe the same as everyone around you? Do you always agree with everyone on everything? Thats unhealthy and slightly worrying that you don't stop and question things. That means you are vulnerable in many situations not just this one. Questioning things rather than taking them at face value is a healthy approach to life across the board because sometimes we find there may be an issue we hadn't previously considered. Issuing threats and ultimatiums is a red flag that theres something not right. I'm not doing that. I'm not asking you or telling you to change.

I love you and respect you and that should be enough. If its not enough, what is it you want? I support you, you know that. I can't just switch off my lived experience and my own identity though. My lived experience is as a mother of daughters.Thats how I relate to others. If someone asks me and I said I had a son and then they started to talk about raising a son I don't have experience of that. I can't live a lie anymore than you can. Biology matters to me because my concerns for my children have often been about threats based on sex not gender. Would I have worried about my son becoming pregnant as a teenager or as a young adult? Would have have worried about my son walking home alone from somewhere late at night in the same way? This matters to me because this is my experience and my life too. Its not a competition where your experience is more important than mine or even vice versa. Just different points of view. You can decide the life you wish to live and thats great, I'm happy for you, but you can't take away parts of me either. None of this means I love you less.

Keep asking questions. Reinforce what she knows and that you love her.

Unfortunately you can't change her mind. But you can plant seeds of doubt in her mantras and thought terminating ultimatiums.

Well1mBack · 23/04/2025 09:53

CautiousLurker01 · 22/04/2025 12:42

Sorry, that was an effing long ‘no advice to give’ reply! I am AuDHD… verbosity is one of my major flaws. 🙏

I just wanted to say thank you @CautiousLurker01 I read your long post and I hope that helps @PyongyangKipperbang as it will certainly help me in future. Your approach sounds really good and sensible. And appears to have not caused conflict or your child going no contact. Which is the main thing. So many of these kids caught up in this are autistic or same sex attracted. So they appear to have additional worries and vulnerabilities when navigating through the cruelties of society. It sucks. We just want to protect them.

I'm neurotypical (my son is severely autistic) and even when trying to help him it reminds me of how awful my teenage years were and I struggled a lot of the time with my identity and I didn't have any sensory processing issues or speech issues or anything like that. I hate how the world is now for our young people. I struggled in the mid 90s without social media and the internet. It's so much harder for them now and also easier for predators and those with dodgy intentions to manipulate and get to young people.

Edited to tag in cautious lurker to thank her

NotBadConsidering · 23/04/2025 09:13

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:56

I would take her at her word, read Judith Butler and then ask her if you can talk about Judith Butler together.

Judith Butler's output is nonsensical garbage. So read it and then ask your DD if she can explain some of the more confusing parts to you.

Show nothing but the utmost respect for her, frame it in terms of you wanting to understand, see if she comes to the conclusion on her own that it is nonsensical garbage.

I sort of agree with this, although Judith Butler is probably better off read while drunk.

The only issue would be is that hardcore gender zeolots - or any zeolots of any sort really - can often dig their heels in even further when the illogicality of their arguments or those who they hold up as their cult leaders. It’s the backfire effect.

So it’s how that analysis of Butler’s garbage is presented back that needs tiptoeing around.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:57

And every time she suggests that you don't love her, don't rise to it, just say, "Of course I do and I always will. There is nothing you could ever do that would make me not love you."

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 23/04/2025 08:56

PyongyangKipperbang · 19/04/2025 01:18

Just got this

"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist and actually understand the issue at hand because until then I want nothing to do with you"

I am not sure that sobering up will change anything. She is fiece and determined.

I am heartbroken.

I would take her at her word, read Judith Butler and then ask her if you can talk about Judith Butler together.

Judith Butler's output is nonsensical garbage. So read it and then ask your DD if she can explain some of the more confusing parts to you.

Show nothing but the utmost respect for her, frame it in terms of you wanting to understand, see if she comes to the conclusion on her own that it is nonsensical garbage.

Mischance · 23/04/2025 08:52

Just keep telling them you love them.

It is a minefield that I am negotiating with a GC. This is the approach I have taken and it seems to be working. We get on really well and talk about it all and they know I am on their team however hard I find it.

MarieDeGournay · 23/04/2025 08:46

I'm sorry OP that sounds horribleFlowers

My go-to amateur shrink response to these painful incidents between mothers and DDs and DSs is: arguments with mothers are rarely about what the argument is apparently about, they are loaded with lots of other 'stuff'.
They can fly off the rails at the speed of light. I don't thing there's much of a place for reasonable debate, 'We know we don't agree on these things, let's move on' strikes me as the best response.

BTW the poster called MordantCarnival has posted almost the exact same post on a different thread,
Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side | Mumsnet
in which they claim to have been taught incorrect biology at the age of 14 but instead of having learnt the scientific correct biology in adulthood - that human sex is binary and immutable - they've clung to their mistaken beliefs.

They wrote:
I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

They bit off more than they could chew [mordant - bit off - see what I did there?Grin] on the other thread as several posters let them know 'what their educational background was' , i.e. PhDs, and MordantCarnival had their 'pretty fundamental science' handed back to the on a plate.

Some strange contradictory arguments from the TRA side | Mumsnet

Claim 1: That it's unfair for TW to go in men's toilets because they're less safe there. It's probably true that they're less safe there, but how doe...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5320277-some-strange-contradictory-arguments-from-the-tra-side

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 08:36

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:28

View it as cult indoctrination.

Nothing you do or say will be good enough. You'll read Judith Butler, try to discuss it but will be told 'that's not right, that's not what she means'

I would (and have) say 'I'm not going to change my mind. I think it's better we don't discuss this'.

Any 'you don't love me' I'd go with 'love is not conditional, it doesn't force others to do what they don't want to do - that's coercive control'. - because that's what she's doing.

I think the coercive control comment is really insightful. I did once say to my GP that I feel like I am in an abusive relationship, where I have been gaslighted, expressly abused, coerced and emotionally manipulated for nearly a decade. The difference is that unlike a marriage you can’t just leave. And even when they reach 18 you KNOW they are vulnerable, damaged and still very much dependent (the lack of support in CAMHS rams home that there is no one else to take care of them)… so you are trapped. Without relief or empathetic sources of support.

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:31

@MordantCarnival The biology that you learnt at 14 was simplified to help you understand it.

It's clear though that even then you missed something.

Sex is binary. DSD's are differences in sexual development - differences in either the male or female sexual development pathway, with changes possible from the point of conception to post puberty.

LadyQuackBeth · 23/04/2025 08:30

I think the best thing now is not to argue this point with her but instead stick to "I brought you up to choose your own beliefs, but I also hoped you'd respect that other people will believe things different to you." Kind of line.

It's not what she believes that's the biggest problem, it's how she's behaving.

user1471538275 · 23/04/2025 08:28

View it as cult indoctrination.

Nothing you do or say will be good enough. You'll read Judith Butler, try to discuss it but will be told 'that's not right, that's not what she means'

I would (and have) say 'I'm not going to change my mind. I think it's better we don't discuss this'.

Any 'you don't love me' I'd go with 'love is not conditional, it doesn't force others to do what they don't want to do - that's coercive control'. - because that's what she's doing.

CautiousLurker01 · 23/04/2025 08:25

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:20

Your explanation is still, to this STEM graduate, a wall of utter incomprehensibility.

I thought that too. AM sure it is an accurate reflection of Butler’s writing, but I still don’t get half of what she is saying. Decided I am clearly a little bit thick - and utterly relieved that my DD never demanded that I read it. Am familiar with Derridas from a literary/genre schema perspective, but all the rest just fries my brain…

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 23/04/2025 08:24

MordantCarnival · 23/04/2025 05:41

"She said "I know you love JK and you have to choose her or me" I said "I dont love JK but I believe in science"" [my emphasis]

I'm still a little baffled that a truly concerning number of people still think that xx to equal a woman and xy to equal a man is an exclusive default, and then go on to to erroneously claim it as scientific fact.

I don't know your educational background, but at my school we learned about intersex people and chromosomal variation not being tied exclusively to pubescent development in Biology when we were around 14. It was pretty fundamental science, to be honest.

So, when you - and others like you - say "I believe in science", I have to ask... how basic is your science, exactly?

  1. The OP didn't say that the only options are XX and XY. You've made that up and pretended that she said it. You are deliberately misrepresenting the OP.
  2. The existence of DSDs does not make it possible for a woman to become a man, which is what OP's DD is claiming to be.