How do I handle this?!

The irony is I'm actually helping a gay friend with some stuff for a pride event next month. He's a really lovely guy and really passionate about it all and tbh I'm not going to be a killjoy to someone with that much positive energy to push the subject in a healthy way. I had no idea how he felt about militant trans activism, it's really not come up in conversation at all. It's not something I was ever going to approach. Nor did I actually feel it was my business to ask.

A mutual friend got talking to him about it and was surprised at his reservations about the militants saying that he thinks he'd have been transed away if he were younger and thinks there's a problem with homophobia and a total lack of safeguarding for young gays and lesbians when they start to come out and says what a confusion of feelings it is at that age.

Mutual friend knows my concerns in this area and has mentioned the conversation. Gay friend is absolutely fabulous and brilliant and just himself. I'm glad he had the time and space without the pressures of militant activism to work it out for himself. The fact that we no longer can have tom boys or effeminate men without people around them jumping on it and saying you must be trans or you are bigoted for even questioning is definitely an issue no one wants to talk about.

And one that members within the gay community are awake too. They know it's a concern and threat.

There are massive elements of homophobia to this, and this is what the Cass Report picked up on. Hannah Barnes also talks about how there was effectively an attitude of complete disregard for anyone who might latter detransition by the Tavistock and how affirm only approaches were harming very troubled young people. And that's what the context of this thread is about. A young person who lost and acting in a way constant with cultlike influence around her.

So I find it actually laughable that I'm being painted as someone who spits at gay people and trans people. It really couldn't be further from the truth. I'm concerned that young people are being sacrificed on the altar of this to legitimise the decisions and life choices of older males.

And tbh I was hoping that the above message attacking me had been left to stand - it's enlightening. I didn't report it. But thank you to those of you who did anyway.

@BeeSouriante, your comments and accusations to RedToothBrush are completely unacceptable. I'm sorry you've been abused in the past but RTB saying things you don't agree with does not mean you can accuse her of hating gay and trans people.

Get a bloody grip. And - if you were a fraction of a decent person - apologise to RTB.

The problem is OP, parental alienation is baked into trans ideology - I'm sure that's reflected in some of your daughter's comments.
Cynical trans adults and groups deliberately frame families as "bigoted". It's an appalling thing to do as anyone with any knowledge of what happens to young people alienated from their parents knows that they do dreadfully in all life chances that can be measured - poor mental health, lower academic achievement, homelessness, increased risks of drug use etc. We know this in society - all our data shows it.
Yet transactivists - the majority of who are not parents - run around warning children of hostile reactions. It's abusive. Responsible parents safeguard their children and always encourage questioning and self reflection. Being LGB is completely different to being trans - it comes with no drugs, surgery or denial of reality.
A child who thinks they're the wrong sex needs love, compassion and care from their family and community with activists being kept well away from them.

I don't hate gay people. I don't hate trans people.

You are now making quite serious personal attacks which are dishonest and untrue.

I suggest you retract them.

particularly if they know very well that the person they want to tell has a huge problem with queer people.

You are prejudiced and judgmental.

Being protective of your child from irreversable experimental healthcare which has known horrendous side effects and telling lies that can not be true is not 'having a problem with queer people'.

From a trans person's perspective, this is the approach. Putting ideology over family relationships is just all kinds of terrible. Also when people come out as any flavour of queer, they more often than not feel most vulnerable and are oftentimes expecting rejection, particularly if they know very well that the person they want to tell has a huge problem with queer people.

As Cautious suggests, focus away from all that and express your love and pride anyway.

That sounds very interesting thank you. I suspect that may have happened to a girl I know.

I was listening to Julie in Gender land podcast and one of the last episodeswas interesting. She spoke to a young woman ((think about 17) who explained how basically she had been pushed by her female partner to think she must be a man in the wrong body because it seems the girlfriend couldn't handle being a lesbian. It's a view point I hadn't heard before. I had heard of internalised homophobia but not pressure from a romantic partner cos they couldn't cope.

You might find the podcast helpful. She talks to parents, experts and one or two of the children. You get a sense of the culture young people are in. It might help you navigate.

Agree with everyone who says you are handling this very well.

Just sending some , @PyongyangKipperbang. This all sounds so very hard.

What a lovely wise post.

And this from @Igmum:
"The best advice I ever got was to focus on our relationship and the non-trans stuff. You say when you’ve seen her outside this she’s not as bad. Would she do nice social stuff with you? With her sisters? At least she’s still with family."

Transactivism seems to turn young people in on themselves with a narcissistic take on their life - hence her attempts to control you in relation to her. In reality young people should be forming views and growing in confidence in themselves in relation to the outside world - as a family member, student, adult, employee, friend, member of a club/sport/hobby etc. So everything that encourages her back into the real world away from all this benefits her in the long run - and hopefully your relationship long term.

Defintely. Reading Judith Butler is like wading through treacle. Funny how being socialist now equates with finding women's rights transphobic.
I hope your DD comes to realise this eventually meanwhile, 💐

I think this is, essentially, how we navigated this (see my overly verbose comment above). For a while it felt like the elephant in the room as I refused to discuss it, but I have made it clear that I love her with every atom of her being, am proud of her and what she has achieved recently - the hard work and dedication that she needed to put into it, not the ‘achievement’ itself - and that while this issue is something we won’t see eye to eye on ever, it cannot define our relationship. I’ve made clear I and her dad will always be there for her - will come and get her in a crisis wherever she is in the world - and she will always have a home with us. I hope she is never foolish enough to start hormones or consider surgery (she faints for vaccinations, and was hysterical before going into have her tonsils out at 14, so am fairly confident she won’t…) but if she did, I would still look after her, just as I would for any other illness. I think she gets that as she is still here at 20.

I’d say that the issue you have OP is that she is begging for your approval. It’s taken the form of wanting approval for the trans identity - do you communicate your pride, love and approval of her in other ways? I am sure you do, but sometimes they develop selective blindness. I wonder whether it is worth sending her a summer card/gift to celebrate finishing another year of uni/tell her how proud you are of her in those other areas of life where you do agree (her degree, her career or life plans). I’d keep reaffirming your love and pride in those areas, ad nauseam if necessary, so that her internal monologue of ‘mum doesn’t accept my trans id’ is, if not overwritten then at least heavily overlaid with, ‘despite our differences my mum adores me and is proud of me’. It becomes difficult for them to maintain the cognitive dissonance of these two positions if you keep highlighting the latter.

Sorry I can’t offer anything more concrete, but I DO think the fact that she reached out at silly o’clock is a sign that she wants connection. Try not to discount this - if she didn’t love you, if she didn’t recognise that you love her on some level, she would have gone no contact. It’s a shaky foundation, but it’s one you can build upon nonetheless.

Firstly, @PyongyangKipperbang, though she may not know it right now, your DD has an amazing, thoughtful, intelligent, compassionate mum. And in the long run, that will stand her in good stead.

The course leader sounds great. I think that, even if communication between the two of you is strained right now, hopefully the conversation can still carry on between the CL and DD, and that can only be a good thing.

Otherwise, I don’t have anything more to offer other than hugs and good wishes and a shoulder should you need it xxx

@PyongyangKipperbangyou sound so wise and loving. I think you’ve totally hit the nail on the head, she’s seeking your approval, her cult is telling her you must agree and you’re her anchor. My DD went through the trans thing when she couldn’t cope with returning to school post lockdowns and everything we conceded (which I regret) just resulted in more, and more insane, demands. She had a total breakdown. She’s emerging and is more sane now, though I do worry that it wouldn’t take much to lure her back in. The best advice I ever got was to focus on our relationship and the non-trans stuff. You say when you’ve seen her outside this she’s not as bad. Would she do nice social stuff with you? With her sisters? At least she’s still with family. The more nice normal stuff you can do together the more the cult loses its grip. Sending love ❤️

@PyongyangKipperbang i am so sorry you’re going through this. I have nothing but contempt for this cult which drives children away from their parents and tells them they’re hated if people won’t affirm harmful delusions.

it sounds to me like you’re handling this brilliantly and I hope that with your loving persistence, she comes back to you.

I thought this too. If she is looking for solidity then it’s your job to be solid, and once her subconscious realises that you are the most solid thing around then maybe she’ll flip back to a more normal way of thinking? It could even happen quite suddenly.

In any event staying true to yourself is surely the least bad option for you. If you went against your instincts and it still worked out badly then that would be the most awful outcome.

As a slightly Machiavellian practical step, rather than confronting the issue head on, are there any issues where you know her to be not-in-line with progressive orthodoxy? Be it abortion, Israel, the environment or whatever – the circles she’s mixing with inevitably all take the same line about everything, so if you can gently encourage her to be aware of a gap on one thing, it might create space for her to create an anchor for herself in a different way, even if it’s not directly in you.

Aaaagh!
"I am begging you to read Judith Butler or any gender socialist”

There is nothing socialist about the antisocial, solipsistic ideology of transgenderism! It is the opposite of socialist. Why do its deluded followers call themselves left-wing or feminist when they clearly haven’t a clue what those words mean?

So many parents facing this. It's a form of coercive control to insist that you abandon your knowledge and beliefs. Desperately unhealthy for any relationship but sadly something that seems baked into trans ideology. Unless family members comply, not just with specified behaviours (names, pronouns etc) but your thoughts are also controlled - and you are required to state them in the approved manner.

My instinct is to make clear to her that you're going to cease discussing the issue with her as you don't agree and nobody should be trying to change the beliefs of others in the way she's demanding - it's an unhealthy dynamic (might not say the last bit).

And then I think I'd quietly grey rock the issue. Listen if she rants but refuse to engage. "I won't get involved in this discussion as we'll likely disagree. I love you very much and would rather focus on finding the positives. How's so and so? What happened with...?" etc

I'd actually ignore late night calls - hard as that is. If she needs you in an emergency she'll text. Then a breezy "how are you" response in the morning when she's not tired etc. Always focusing on her and listening but not reacting if she introduces trans issues. Needs the patience of a saint but if it helps rebuild your relationship it's worth it.

So very sorry.

@PyongyangKipperbang, I hope you are doing things to help yourself and your own mental health - this is all super difficult and stressful. Can’t see if it was mentioned upthread (apologies if it was) but the Bayswater support group for parents is very good. There’s a link on this page, along with links to lots of other helpful groups:

https://www.thoughtfultherapists.org/find-a-therapist

I think that deep down she knows that her views arent as bullet proof as she claims they are. She needs something to cling to and as long as I wont back her up with that, she cant cling to it at all. Every time we talk I expose something that she doesnt want to acknowledge. I think it comes down to her wanting my approval for this and I wont give it and that means she is floating free with no anchor. The anchor she thought she had, the TRA movement, isnt solid and she knows she cant cling to it.

This paragraph seems so insightful and such an evident sign of love's understanding. To me it feels like your daughter is very aware of this deep and loving perception of her and that this is the connection she wants to maintain when she tries to force you to accept her current self-understanding.

It is a terribly contradictory set of pressures that she is placing on herself. To use your analogy it is like she values the anchor so highly she wants to drag it out of the water and cling it to her -- whilst knowing that it cannot do its job unless it stays at a distance.

If you did start to endorse everything she says, I think she might find that a bit catastrophic and disorientating, because she would know that your endorsement was inauthentic and she would have sabotaged the deep connection that you have -- the intimacy of that 'love's understanding'.

There does seem to be a very strong mutual awareness between you that makes the current difficulties so intense. But I hope that its very strength will ultimately provide the solution too. I think you have done exactly the right thing so far -- offering respect for her choices but not making any false declarations about your own perceptions and values.

Yes.

You could say something like, "It's like you're asking me to start believing in God. If I don't, I just don't. I'm not going to lie to you and you shouldn't want me to. Our relationship deserves better than that."

Good for the course leader!

Have you been clear when discussing the situation that it isn’t a case of ‘won’t/don’t want to’ but that you can’t. You can’t believe this stuff, any more than believing <insert random non offensive thing>.

As an extension of the concept ‘agree to disagree’, could you go along with reducing the triggers you represent to her? Try and use her name/pronouns on the basis that it doesn’t mean you believe it, just that you want to comfort her? As Kumquat says.

CL said that it sounded like I had thought through my own views on this and that perhaps DD should think about why I came to the views I had considering my age and experiences in life.

That sounds positive IP! One she is at least seeking counselling and two they sound very gender neutral. Well actually they sound GC but know how to discuss the issue without your daughter taking offence.

I have no words if wisdom but look forward to reading a positive update from you one day.

You ask her for proof of anything JKR has said or written that is actually transphobic?

That should keep her busy for a while.