Have you ever mistaken a woman for a man?

You seem to have ignored the final bit:: to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided.”

Toilets are a context in which other women objecting to trans-identified women are unlikely to be considered "reasonable". Domestic violence refuges and rape counseling services are contexts in which objection would be reasonable.

The judgment describes how service providers offering a single-sex service are also exempt from the prohibition against gender-reassignment discrimination (as long as their conduct is proportionate). For example, a “trans man” (a woman living in the male gender) can be lawfully excluded from a female-only service, without this amounting to gender-reassignment discrimination.
“This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided.”
https://sex-matters.org/posts/publications/supreme-court-judgment-summary-and-practical-advice/

equally not exactly welcome in woman's

Who is saying that trans-identified women aren't welcome in the ladies'?

Yes. And am frequently mistaken for one myself.

I wish women would apologise when they accuse me of being a man/pervert in the toilets. Usually they double down and argue! Because that's human nature I guess.

Once at a garage collecting my car. A short haired older woman was stood in front of me in mechanics overalls. As soon as she moved and spoke I knew she was a woman.

I have, and felt horrible about it. Haunts me to this day. I'm so hyper vigilant about men using the ladies at my workplace (it happens both on purpose and accidental quite frequently) that I spotted what I thought was a man coming out of one of the cubicles. Turns out she was just a butch lesbian 😭

Haven't read the full thread. I'm a lesbian and I know some lesbian women who have been mistaken for men, particularly from a distance or behind. In particular I know one short-haired dyke who is more than 6' tall and wears male-style clothing. She has several times been mistaken for a man from behind while in the queue for the Ladies. If she's challenged she laughs about it. The moment you see her face it's apparent she's female and as soon she speaks you're in no doubt.

Women understand why women are nervous of encountering a man out of place in the women's loos or changing rooms. It's the men who are hoping you don't notice are more likely to be unpleasant. if you accidentally accuse a woman of being a man then just apologise: they will almost certainly understand.

My 12yo autistic DS has been misgendering everyone since he was born. He's only mildly autistic and is in mainstream school but does struggle with social cues.

It's genuinely astonishing - he was listening to a female YouTube video narration and was convinced they were male. He's called me Daddy twice today!

I think his autism is affecting his natural understanding of sex and/or gender.

Def agree about the hair. Jacket also- Missy was Napoleon III's niece, hence the epaulettes, & this is another strong cue to read her as male, both then & now.

I think also personal experience plays a role here : Missy looks quite a lot like a masculine lesbian who was my HOY in Y7- she also had a similarly authoritative but kind personality to Missy's reported one. Posters here on FWR are probs more likely to be lesbian or know lesbians than the majority of women, and butch lesbians are still (arguably more now) badly represented in media. Off the top of my head, I can only really think of Ellen & Lea de Laria as butch lesbians in the public eye, & both are arguably not v prominent these days.

So I do think people here may be underestimating the likelihood of this happening. I think tho it is the kind of thing that happens much more in the US, as esp in certain states the pressure to be ultrafeminine seems much stronger & bigotry is also stronger. Anyway, now we have won women's rights back, we can focus on lesbian issues as one of the next steps.

there is also how people dress. The trans women I’ve seen dress overly feminine often inappropriately sexual for the setting if not overly sexy it’s blouses female footwear and pat butcher earrings. they are clearly trying to come across female. Those who make no effort to present female give off such strong misogynistic vibes to me often dangerous vibes. No transman would dress this way. If I met someone dressed in practical male clothing in the woman’s now and their behaviour was normal for a public female toilet I’d assume they were transman or just a gender non conforming woman and not challenge

My teen thought another teen girl was a boy. She had a skin fade and was wearing a tracksuit so it was a very genuine mistake.

If she was stood amongst 10 other teenage lads you would struggle to pick her out as the girl but she was so beyond offended when my DD accident said him.

Good point. But is it illegal to ask for pored of biological sex? Which is what gets you into the woman’s facilities 🤔

Disability rights campaigners have, for many years, made appeals for people without disabilities to ‘do the right thing’ and not use the loos provided for disabled people. There are many invisible disabilities that require the facilities provided in these loos and they don’t want people challenging those using them - for this reason. There is no one policing access to these loos, yet no one challenges them being provided. Using them is not a criminal offence, but most (but not all) people think it is inconsiderate and disrespectful to use them if not disabled.

The same can and should apply to female only loos. The conniptions are being had to try and subvert widespread acceptance of transwomen using female only loos as being considered disrespectful and inconsiderate. The reluctance for third spaces is rejected on the grounds that if/where these are provided there will be even greater social pressure to stay out of female loos.

I think it can happen with young people. I was a tall teen with short hair, and depending on what I was wearing, was sometimes mistaken for a boy - and my tall, short-haired DD is very often, as she’s less curvy than I was at that age.

I was at college with a pair of brothers who were slender, long-haired and incredibly pretty (there really is no other way to describe them) who frequently caused confusion. And just the other week I ID’d a young man at work who turned out to be a 21 year old woman.

But I don’t believe the burly middle-aged TIM are fooling anyone but themselves.

Similar to other's experience, I have been mistaken as a man a handful of times. Mostly in the 90s in my late teens early twenties when wore men's jeans and jacket and DMs and was slim 5' 11". Usually it was older people not paying attention e.g. in busy shop queue. "Mate" instead of "love", that kind of thing.
As a tallish woman I regularly have people looking at my feet - happened only the other day. I assume it is to check if wearing heels.

Except that the GRA specifies that you cannot ask for proof of the person's legal-fiction sex. It's outing, apparently.

OTOH, as the overwhelming majority of trans-identifying people do not have a GRC, why shouldn't we ask.

OTOH (3 hands?) as ID documents can be legally falsified just by asking for your sex marker to be changed, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.

According to Duff McKagan, Axl Rose was sometimes mistaken for a woman behind because of his beautiful long red hair and slim physique. Until he turned round or spoke.
Funny that it never happened to 6ft 3in tall Duff who at this time was often wearing eyeliner, fishnets or both as part of the then US punk scene.

Occasionally you see someone you are pretty sure is a man...but presenting as a woman...usually in the press or in media....and I've gone and done some goggling to see if they are trans identified or not. Sometimes it turns out that they most probably are women, but sometimes it does turn out they are trans identified.

i don't think i can ever recall seeing and/or mistaking a woman in everyday life situations and thinking she was a man. I often see young women around in my city, who are clearly presenting as male......not just masculine women or butch lesbians, but young women with facial hair, or who are giving off the obvious vibe that they are trans identified, or likely 'non-binary' ( which seems more popular now for gender non conforming girls).

No me but I had a friend who was regularly challenged going into pub toilets to the extent she would not go alone. 15 or more years ago though I doubt she gets challenged as much since the rise of trans. She wore male clothes and had short male hairstyle typical masc lesbian.

it still doesn’t change my mind women like this and transmen may be challenged. She would say “I’m a woman” and that was immediately accepted I think that’s reasonable.

i used a carer discount to take my disabled son on a day out yesterday. I have to show proof of disability for him regularly so carry it with me. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect transmen to carry proof they are women for showing management if they are challenged and blocked entry. If that actually will happen after they say they are a woman

I've been wondering how this will impact the boys put on puberty blockers who have 'transitioned'.

Presumably they will pass as female. That was partly the aim in the puberty blockers.
And they've been told they'll be accepted as women.

This is going to be hard to navigate for those boys sold that lie.

Presumably they'll continue to use female toilets etc if they really do pass and it'll only become an issue if they are ever sent to prison or when in hospital?

Or I guess in the workplace they are going to be living in fear of being 'outed' and women objecting to them using female facilities.

What a tragic lie these children have been sold.

I can always spot a trans person. Large feet on a TW along with hair pattern shouts man in a dress.

Wider bottom on trans men and smaller feet, with wispy beard shouts woman in men's clothing

I work with hundreds of young people and yes, there have been times where I have not been sure or have got it wrong.
I personally have to make an effort to signal that I am a woman. I am heavy-set and muscular, with hands and feet too big for women's gloves/ shoes. I wear clothes cut for men because my shoulders hips and calves are man- shaped.
I even have a deep voice. But my voice is so soft that as soon as I speak it's obvious I am female, and anyone who mistook me at first would quickly realise and forget they ever did.

Just look for an Adam’s Apple or lack of it it’s a big giveaway. I do know that a surgical procedure can mean it’s removed but I would guess percentage is tiny. Plus if the neck is not easily seen as covered it’s not easy.

I had a M to F teacher at my further Ed college a couple of years ago when I was doing a creative course for fun. They were early fifties like the majority of women in the class and dressed like they were out going clubbing as a teenager.

The current argument I'm seeing on SM is that it's easier for men to pretend to be trans men than to pretend to be trans women.

All this does is highlight that no amount of legislation can ever actually keep women safe from awful men. Newsflash - we know this. Pointing out just how awful some men are isn't a good argument for telling us we should just give up on even trying to protect women.

They're also missing the point that it's a crime for a man to pretend to be a transman (ie pretend to be female) in order to gain access to women's spaces, whereas as it's absolutely not a crime for a man to "pretend" to be a transwoman.