"Trans women ARE biological women"

Come on TRAs, keep up - the whole reason you switched tactic to legal sex being more important than biological sex was because you weren't convincing anyone with this nonsense.

I'm exhausted at the thought of going back to the days of these sorts of gotchas - "what about women who don't/can't have children, women who've had a hysterectomy, or chemo that's destroyed all their eggs, women who've had mastectomies, women on HRT- are you going to tell my poor lovely sister that on top of her cancer/infertility that she's actually not a woman at all??!!"

And we all know chromosomes are irrelevant because literally no one even knows what their chromosomes are. Also, very rare medical conditions. And fucking clownfish.

Feels like we're destined to be stuck in an eternal doomloop of idiocy. But at least for the moment this idiocy is confined to social media, and is no longer ambiguous in the actual law.

Look, let's be fair, I'm all for testing a theory.

Take cheek swabs of, say, 100 people. A mix of men and women, including those who identify as trans, and including some who have undergone surgery/take hormones etc. etc. Any proportions you like - no need to be 50/50 men vs women or anything predictable like that.

Keep a record of which swabs come from which individuals, their sex as recorded on their original birth certificate and their gender identity as reported in each case. Assign each person a number and write it on the corresponding swab.

Give the numbered swabs to a lab to test 'blind'. Don't tell them how many of the 100 fall into each category and certainly don't tell them which swabs relate to each person. Ask the lab to report back the sex of each sample - writing it against the sample number on each case. They may also flag any samples they feel are ambiguous and could do with further testing.

Put the results into a table and add back in the columns of sex on original birth certificate and reported gender identity for each swab.

Every person making the claim the OP sets out in the OP - and every person refuting it - can then be invited to guess how many of the test results will match sex at birth vs how many will match gender identity. They can also be invited to bet a sum of money against their guess.

Like a fun sort of 'guess how many sweets in the jar' for Easter!

All proceeds to be split between correct guessers to donate to the charity of their choice.

Yes?

I wonder what the results will be!

Don’t give it any credence or any weight, it’s just another set of words to argue black is white, up is down etc

That's the exact argument Dr Beth Upton used.

Or basic biology.

So is he delusional, need more training or lying?

He's done his career wonders you have to say. Probably going into the history books along side Louise Carlill vs Carbolic smoke ball Co and May Donoghue vs Mr Stevenson.(snail in ginger beer)

And I've only just realised it was WOMEN who were the wee people in those cases!!!

I'd forgotten about that massive red flag.
What an absolute entitled cock he is.

Perhaps the tantrum identified as an educational visit?

I agree and I genuinely don't understand why this isn't grounds for him being investigated/struck off.

He's trans, (changing room debacle aside), no problem. As long as he can still do his job in a competent manner I'm not interested in how he identifies/wears.

Howevrr, he denies scientific, biological reality which for a Dr I would assume was the height of incompetence. I certainly wouldn't trust him to treat me or my family. You can't base medical treatment/test results etc on feelings FFS.

It was more of a trantrum than an educational visit.

As I said on another thread, anyone who thinks that fascism looks like a group of feminists asking the politically independent Supreme Court to uphold the women's sex based rights contained in the equality legislation passed by the last Labour government is a complete idiot.

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩

Doctor doesn't understand consent.

If they're so scared of us, why do they want to share single sex spaces with us?

One of the great trans contradictions.

Thanks for the link - I note the warning that Mumsnet is reading their thread (😱 how dare we) and the need to ‘stay safe’ - it’s like our very existence offends the posters hence the unwanted intrusion here!

Damn, did I miss the educational visit from The Right Side Of History?

I'm increasingly thinking we can't win this on an individual level. I teach my students that as vehemently as one person knows they're right, the other side of the debate feels the same way. And the other side of this debate lives in an echo chamber with millions of people agreeing with them.

Which is why the supreme court's judgement is important. We need lawmakers and experts to make the decisions and uphold them. Flat earthers think they're right but we don't let them decide the school curriculum. Anti vaxxers think they're right but we don't let them run the NHS. Fundamental religious zealots believe in their punitive God but we don't let them stone people in His name. We need everybody in a position of power to follow robust and scientifically backed logic. We're not there yet but this week's ruling is a start.

I've always wanted to keep things simple, so rather than arguing on the basis of toilets or crime stats or whatever, I've just clung to the argument that any man who claims he is a woman is factually, scientifically, and biologically incorrect.

After the Supreme Court ruling, I feel strengthened in that approach.
'No you're not, full stop'.

How charming and delightful of ARO0607 (and definitely not projection at all).

Prior to the ‘No Debate’ era, I didn’t give trans women a second thought. I didn’t notice them, didn’t stress about them, didn’t think any more of them than anyone else. I doubt I’ll be ‘hate-filled’. I’ll just go back to that state once I properly feel a sense of safety, privacy and dignity returning.

"Fascists and hate filled". They, not to assume their gender, seemed to be having a tantrum.

Unicorn pooh is rainbow coloured.

Even more concerning is that Upton said that if a female patient requested a female doctor then he saw no problem with telling that woman he was female and carrying out treatment.

Oh damn it. I missed ARO0607's insightful contrubutions.

Were they accusing us all of being Mussolini worshipers again?

It's gaslighting, always has been always will be.

dont get sucked into it. There is no longer any need.

there will always be sore losers who refuse to accept they're wrong.

Teddy bears are bears.

When you see a bear, how do you know it's not a teddy bear? Teddy bears have been passing as bears for years, they just want to live peacefully among other bears etc etc

So he could equally be a dog or an antelope by his logic. 🙄