"Trans women ARE biological women"

Thats a very old one.

We're really replaying the classics here today on gold.

Now Bachman–Turner Overdrive with you ain't seen nothing yet, followed by a vague explaination of 2 spirit.

Its not. Ever heard of Fa’afafine in Samoa? You probably havent. The binary system that exists in the western world is far from a universal concept.

We really have stepped back in time. Every single stupid argument that has been debated in this forum many times before is making a comeback.

The Fa'afafine are not considered to be women, or even a mix of female and male. They are known to be men. Women can't be Fa'afafine. And it's also understood to be a solution to the "problem", as it might be seen, of gay or effeminate men - that is, men who don't perform masculinity/male gender as expected. In other words, yet more proof that sex is real, and gender is woo. Because a man can wear clothes and behave in a way that is associated with women, and he's still a man.

Yes we have, because it’s been trotted out dozens of times before and in no way represents any challenge to the factual truth of binary sex classes in humans.

Its not. Ever heard of Fa’afafine in Samoa? You probably havent. The binary system that exists in the western world is far from a universal concept.

Yep this.

I think it’s more like a ‘real Scotsman’. As opposed to, say, three Scottish women.

........................we have just settled the point that transwomen are, indeed, men.

In the highest court in this land.

On Wednesday.

Don't you remember?

I had understood that that was the catalyst for this strange semi-permeable membrane between Mumsnet and Reddit that we are seeing today.

If not, what exactly are you upset about?

Yeah, that one is certainly not new.

If sex is too complicated to be a knowable reality, why do trans people use hormones and surgery to change their bodies? What are they trying to change from? And into what else?

Surely transitioning is redundant since a TW is not transitioning to anything sex based. A TW is a man. That right? So what does "trans" mean anymore now? Learning how to wear a dress, tights, heels, carry a handbag, choose make up? That's transvestism, and that's fine, off you go. But you never were, nor ever will be an adult human female.

Real biology - is that like real islam or real christianity?

Human sex categories involve making a decision based on whether the person's body is formed around the production of large or small gametes. This takes into account chromosomes and body parts. And it is not dependant on whether those gametes are produced at the moment, in the past or in the future. No human on earth cannot be categorised in this way.

'Lived experience' is not relevant for the categorising of human's body for reproduction.

And link up the studies that you refer to about brains. Because so far, everyone who makes that claim links up studies that simply do not withstand scrutiny. If those studies did in fact withstand scrutiny, then there would be brain scans used for diagnostic tools.

Instead, what we know is that if a male person takes particular hormones, their brain reacts in a particular way. If they have particular interests, and it has also been posited that sexual interest is included in this, that they will show some similarities.

Female brains are different in structure to male brains due to the skull size and shape, that leads to different % of grey matter, and there are also other differences such as female people have more delicate brain fibres. These are not differences seen in male people with transgender identities.

Yes, we all know about DSDs, but can you show my evidence where a genetically male fetus develops into a fully functioning (gamete producing when adult) female, or vice versa, because of environmental factors, or epigenetics, or whatever you want to bring into play?
Oh, and explain how this has anything to do with trans.

I do actually think that some transwomen who want to access female spaces don't do it because they want to get off on the naked women. But they certainly want to exploit female bodies and women's autonomy, in using them as validation tools for their own self image. (And a note here - nobody is obliged to uphold anyone else's self image. That's why it's called self image.) After all, if they really do only want a safe changing space, then a designated mixed sex one will do the job, being the same thing as a "female" space that admits males, and will draw LESS attention to them because they won't stand out as males in a female space.

Take the case of Dr Beth Upton, the male doctor who used the female changing rooms at NHS Fife. Female nurse Sandie Peggie would not use the changing rooms while he was in there. Upton objected to this and, by his own admission, kept notes on his phone every time Sandie refused to use the space while he was in there...in case he had to "escalate" it. His word. In case he had to "escalate" the matter of a woman refusing to take her clothes off alongside him.

I don't think Upton was driven by sexual attraction to Sandie. But he did want her to undress alongside him in order to validate his image of himself as a woman and was angry when she refused to let him use her and her female body as props. And of course, we terfs all know who got hounded at work and suspended...

Lol. The one thing that thousands of generations of humans have known - when they have known fuck all about anything else - is male and female sex. Across every single known culture on the planet.

I think I’ve very nearly got house.

The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.

Orwell's quote seems so pertinent on this. You have to seriously deny reality to argue that sex is not binary. It's absolutely fascinating from a psychological perspective.

Also not all “trans women” are gay men.

I understand basic biology perfectly. I also understand that real biology is far more complex than the simplistic version you are describing. Gene expression is not a fixed blueprint, it is influenced by countless factors. The same chromosomes can produce very different outcomes, as medical science has repeatedly shown.
If you think quoting ‘everything comes from the genome’ ends the discussion, you might want to revisit more advanced biology textbooks.

They are men, though. In reality and in law.