Page 6 | A worrying thought about the SC judgment

PlayerOneReady · 2025-04-18T07:49:02+00:00

Is anyone else concerned that what may happen now, in reality, is a big increase in ‘gender neutral’ facilities as organisations realise they don’t actually have capacity for a third space, at least in the short term? And we all know from what we’ve seen in theatres, etc, that that will end up with effectively one ‘Men’s/with urinals’ and one ‘Gender Neutral’. It was this story in today’s Times that made me think about it. I’m especially worried about gym changing rooms etc. Would we have the right to challenge if this does happen? story: Equalities watchdog inundated with questions on trans women ruling [[https://www.thetimes.com/article/557269e6-2902-4b30-b873-4fac87ba6253?shareToken=131768232050262c20823acf6fe87c92 https://www.thetimes.com/article/557269e6-2902-4b30-b873-4fac87ba6253?shareToken=131768232050262c20823acf6fe87c92]]

andtheworldrollson · 18/04/2025 13:10

as soon as you say transwomen are ok you are saying all men are ok because the bad ones lie

AgnesX · 18/04/2025 13:09

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 18/04/2025 10:34

The vast majority of the general public still see Trans as vulnerable. They imagine confused effeminate man in a dress who has had surgery. We urgently need to get the message out on this.

I've never understood this " vulnerable" bit myself. The few trans people I've come across come across as anything but.

As always, undoubtedly it's the vociferous few spoiling it for the majority.

DorotheaDiamond · 18/04/2025 13:08

Annascaul · 18/04/2025 12:49

Are you suggesting they have hitherto been using the Gents?

Show quote history

Yes - bearded, balding and muscled…

Datun · 18/04/2025 13:05

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 13:03

Trans men can look the same as cis men. How are you going to know? I think that’s quite dangerous tbh. Like I said previously I would far rather a trans women in the ladies than risk cis men

I don't know why, statistically, they pose a greater risk.

edited to add, but you know, as soon as third spaces are up and running, you can those. As can transmen. Everyone's happy

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 13:03

Trans men can look the same as cis men. How are you going to know? I think that’s quite dangerous tbh. Like I said previously I would far rather a trans women in the ladies than risk cis men

WarriorN · 18/04/2025 13:03

Ficklebricks · 18/04/2025 12:35

Most places have a separate disabled toilet. I expect it's cheaper just to put a "gender neutral & disabled" sign on that door instead of building a separate third space. As it's an enclosed individual room I think this wouldn't cause any issues.

this causes huge issues. It’s illegal to do this in the first instance.

Datun · 18/04/2025 13:02

StMarie4me · 18/04/2025 12:58

Will you be happy seeing a trans man in the women’s toilets? Genuine question. How will you know if he’s a trans man that the SC ruling has decided must go to the toilet of his biological birth, or a biologically born male using the SC ruling to invade women’s spaces?

It doesn't matter. The service provider can refuse entry.

It is, apparently, up to the user to convince the service provider of their sex.

Once successful, the service provider can let other users know.

Torturous, I know. But what you gonna do, Let all the men in instead?

CheekySnake · 18/04/2025 13:00

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:55

I think it’s important to realise that if you want to say people have to use the sex toilets they were assigned at birth then this means trans men’s in the ladies. It’s far more complex an issue than people seem to realise

Please explain what the problem is with women who are pretending to be men using female facilities.

Women with PCOS and facial hair, women who have had mastectomies and don't have breasts, women who have had hysterectomies, women who like short hairstyles and women who prefer clothes from the men's section are already using the female facilities without issue.

StMarie4me · 18/04/2025 12:58

Will you be happy seeing a trans man in the women’s toilets? Genuine question. How will you know if he’s a trans man that the SC ruling has decided must go to the toilet of his biological birth, or a biologically born male using the SC ruling to invade women’s spaces?

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:55

I think it’s important to realise that if you want to say people have to use the sex toilets they were assigned at birth then this means trans men’s in the ladies. It’s far more complex an issue than people seem to realise

CheekySnake · 18/04/2025 12:49

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:18

if people can only use the toilets of their gender at birth then there will be a lot of male presenting people in the female toilets. This will be extremely easy for cis men to exploit by claiming they are trans male and therefore entitled to be there. This concerns me way more than the occasional trans woman in the cubicle next to me. The real issue here is cis men who are a risk to women and that is where the focus for change and protections should be

So you are saying we can't say no to men because it might make a different group of men use the female toilet?

Annascaul · 18/04/2025 12:49

DorotheaDiamond · 18/04/2025 12:47

I think there will be a lot of TRA trans men (female at birth for clarity) who almost completely pass who will be using the ladies to make life difficult for the shop (or whatever) they are in…I feel really sorry for the teenage Saturday shop assistant in primark etc who are going to have to deal with women saying there’s a man in the ladies and the TM saying “I’m female”

Show quote history

Are you suggesting they have hitherto been using the Gents?

Datun · 18/04/2025 12:47

RiotAndAlarum · 18/04/2025 11:34

Time to dust off this analysis from the Sunday Times? It was based on FOIs about sexual crimes at leisure centres. The article is from 2018, which isn't all that long ago, and can be said to represent "business-as-usual", with no pandemic effects.

Look at how disproportionate the rate of sexual harrassment, voyeurism, sexual assualt, etc. is in mixed-sex facilities, compared to single-sex!

Archive copy <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20250417165607/www.thetimes.com/article/b6093ee6-ae19-11e8-bc16-e88ad6fee895" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20250417165607/www.thetimes.com/article/b6093ee6-ae19-11e8-bc16-e88ad6fee895

There were 134 complaints of sexual misconduct in sports centre and swimming pool changing rooms last year, councils said in their FoI responses. Of these, 120 related to incidents that took place in unisex changing rooms and 14 to incidents in single-sex changing rooms. As well as voyeurism, offences recorded in unisex facilities included harassment, sexual assault and rape.

In 46 more cases, councils said, sex incidents were reported in other parts of the premises, such as in or beside the pool, in sports halls, corridors or car parks or an area of the building they could not specify. Some of those not specified could also have been in changing rooms. Not all incidents were reported to police or resulted in prosecutions.

Councils said the vast majority of changing rooms for “dryside” activities, such as fitness training and court or pitch sports, were still single-sex. About half of “wetside” changing rooms, for swimming pools, were mixed.

In Cardiff a 1,000-signature petition has recently been collected against gender-neutral facilities at the new Star Hub leisure centre. Bernie Breen, who started the protest, said the sexes “need to be separate because there isn’t enough staff to keep an eye on everybody”.

The figures show that sports centres in the same city have big differences in sex incidents depending on their changing room arrangements, even where user numbers are similar. In Wolverhampton, two centres, Aldersley Leisure Village and the Central Baths, have only single-sex changing rooms. Between them they had 506,000 users last year and no reported sex incidents.

A third venue in the city, Wolverhampton Swimming & Fitness Centre, has a mixture of single-sex and unisex changing. It had 517,000 users last year and 11 reported sex incidents, all in the unisex changing area.

[edit: I've forgotten how to do links and can't it work! 🙄]

Edited

Yes, it's perfect obvious that mixed sex facilities represent an increased risk for women.

It's exactly the same ride that we've been on.

Certain men will do anything to stick it to women, including saying see, now you've brought this on yourself.

Nope. The entire point was to examine the equality act. And the conclusion was this is how it is meant to be and that's it protects women on that basis

Provision suddenly going mixed sex everywhere does the opposite.

It might require more gardening, or more likely, just an unequivocal statement.

Annascaul · 18/04/2025 12:47

Ficklebricks · 18/04/2025 12:35

Most places have a separate disabled toilet. I expect it's cheaper just to put a "gender neutral & disabled" sign on that door instead of building a separate third space. As it's an enclosed individual room I think this wouldn't cause any issues.

Except for it not being available for actual disabled people?!

DorotheaDiamond · 18/04/2025 12:47

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:18

if people can only use the toilets of their gender at birth then there will be a lot of male presenting people in the female toilets. This will be extremely easy for cis men to exploit by claiming they are trans male and therefore entitled to be there. This concerns me way more than the occasional trans woman in the cubicle next to me. The real issue here is cis men who are a risk to women and that is where the focus for change and protections should be

I think there will be a lot of TRA trans men (female at birth for clarity) who almost completely pass who will be using the ladies to make life difficult for the shop (or whatever) they are in…I feel really sorry for the teenage Saturday shop assistant in primark etc who are going to have to deal with women saying there’s a man in the ladies and the TM saying “I’m female”

Talkinpeace · 18/04/2025 12:36

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:18

if people can only use the toilets of their gender at birth then there will be a lot of male presenting people in the female toilets. This will be extremely easy for cis men to exploit by claiming they are trans male and therefore entitled to be there. This concerns me way more than the occasional trans woman in the cubicle next to me. The real issue here is cis men who are a risk to women and that is where the focus for change and protections should be

Female toilets are for females.
Males, no matter how they identify or what pieces of paper they carry use the men's.
Middle class women of a certain age will make sure of it.

Ficklebricks · 18/04/2025 12:35

Most places have a separate disabled toilet. I expect it's cheaper just to put a "gender neutral & disabled" sign on that door instead of building a separate third space. As it's an enclosed individual room I think this wouldn't cause any issues.

Burntt · 18/04/2025 12:35

CheekySnake · 18/04/2025 10:18

I don't think we will see a rush to change everything gender neutral, in fact I think we will see the opposite. Given that the vast majority of public spaces have male, female, disabled and baby change, the cheapest, quickest, easiest and legal option is single sex toilets and if you can't cope with the toilet appropriate to your sex because you've got gender feelings, you can use the fully enclosed, private, mixed sex disabled toilet.

I appreciate that this isn't fair on disabled people who don't have decent provision as it is. But given that we're told that barely anyone is trans to begin with, surely it won't cause that much of a problem if they are using the disabled facilities. After all, they only want to pee, right?

I know that gender dysphoria isn’t required to be trans anymore but if it were then I think it’s a fair argument they would be entitled to use the disabled toilet due to their disability of gender dysphoria.

PonyPatter44 · 18/04/2025 12:34

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:29

I know several trans men and honestly you wouldn’t know. Personally I think a third space makes most sense.

We probably know different ones. One i know passes fairly well, one really doesn't (but seems to think they do).

Will trans organisations now stop talking about going into the women's toilets and get on with campaigning and fundraising for third spaces?

Talkinpeace · 18/04/2025 12:33

Any building built before 2015
just needs the signs switched back to how they were before the madness started.

Any facility used by employees has to (under the 1992 regs) provide single sex toilets, washrooms and changing facilities

I suspect companies and organisations will fall into line VERY fast because they know that they WILL lose if taken to court.

Xis · 18/04/2025 12:33

TeenToTwenties
By the way, by saying it has to be 'policed' are you saying that trans people would willingly and knowingly break the law? For hundreds of years sex separated spaces has worked, it really isn't that difficult.

That was before Stonewall and others told transwomen they had the right to use single-sex spaces and convinced many public and private bodies that this was the law. To them, this feels like an important right is being taken away and some aren’t going to accept it without a fight.

There is an also a significant contingent of males, regardless of gender identity, who enjoy transgressing women’s boundaries. This law clarification won’t stop them, especially when they have government-issued identity documents which proclaim they are female.

TeenToTwenties · 18/04/2025 12:32

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:29

I know several trans men and honestly you wouldn’t know. Personally I think a third space makes most sense.

It is such a shame that Stonewall et al have put so much time and energy in trying to break women's single sex spaces rather than campaigning for a third space.

And this is the problem. Trans women had all the rights for employment, non discrimination etc. But they wanted more, they wanted in on women's single sex rights too. They went too far, and if there is now a bigger pushback that is a consequence of that.

andtheworldrollson · 18/04/2025 12:30

The most likely thing in many cases is that disabled spaces ( which is already sex neutral ) will be rebadged - given there are so few transgender people

how that pans out for disabled people will depend on the environment but the overall growth in number of disabled people over the last decade or so far exceeds I think the number of transgender

indeed I am pretty sure that happened in my workplace - one disabled loo became the “anybody” loo - although women were warned off because of the male aiming problem which seems very widespread ( like their piddle)

Latelifelesbian · 18/04/2025 12:29

I know several trans men and honestly you wouldn’t know. Personally I think a third space makes most sense.

WarriorN · 18/04/2025 12:29

Trans charities really should be raising money to campaign for and fund safe third spaces. Just as women did. Women have had to raise a hell of a lot of money to fund these cases to simply make sure the law as it always and already was, was being followed.