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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scots prisons should offer taxpayer-funded wardrobe with women's clothing for transgender prisoners says watchdog

36 replies

SeethingHarpie · 10/04/2025 14:12

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scots-prisons-should-offer-taxpayer-35025435

How on earth can people in positions of authority and (supposed) safeguarding make such decisions and recommendations? I seriously do not understand the priorities - it is apparently more important that TIMs get access to women’s clothes and spaces than it is to offer basic human rights and safety to women?

Scots prisons should offer taxpayer-funded wardrobe for transgender prisoners

The HM Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland (HMIPS) recommended the creation of a wardrobe of women's clothing for trans prisoners to easy access.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scots-prisons-should-offer-taxpayer-35025435

OP posts:
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Bosky · 12/04/2025 22:11

youkiddingme · 12/04/2025 21:43

How about we stop referring to skirts and dresses as 'women's clothing' in the first place. It's just clothing. It confers nothing.

It's obviously not "just clothing" to the men who want to wear skirts and dresses in prison.

youkiddingme · 12/04/2025 21:43

How about we stop referring to skirts and dresses as 'women's clothing' in the first place. It's just clothing. It confers nothing.

ForestAtTheSea · 12/04/2025 15:18

Lovelysummerdays · 11/04/2025 07:55

Women wear their own clothes a lot of the time. You are supposed to turn up to sentencing with a bag of approved clothing from a list. Essentially joggers, shorts, pjs, T-shirts and jumpers. There was a thread on this recently because female prisoners have to handwash their own knickers and someone hadn’t packed so was doing her solo pair her every night. In the male estate they are laundered with everything else.

I remembered that topic; for women there is no wardrobe service. And this concept suggested in the article linked in the first post seems to cement the view (again) that clothes change the sex of the wearer.

www.theguardian.com/society/2025/feb/05/basic-lack-of-decency-driving-self-harm-in-womens-prisons-report-says

TheOtherRaven · 12/04/2025 09:55

Clothes are just clothes. Obviously all male prisoners have access to clothes, since there's no human rights issue of any walking around naked and shivering. Presumably they all arrive with the clothes they normally wear and have the same access to new clothes as needed. And in the women's estate, most likely the majority are wearing what could be termed gender neutral clothes anyway, the same as most women in Asda this morning. That's what most women wear day to day.

Providing costumes should not be a tax payer responsibility. And there's the normal gigantic elephant thundering around that for many men, the clothes are a sexual experience. Providing sex aids shouldn't be a tax payer responsibility. And the reality of the situation shouldn't be fogged over by the usual highly emotive view that whitewashes away all the inconvenient bits.

Considering tax payers are being told that they need to learn to give more and expect a lot less, that the country can't afford essential medical treatments for those in desperate need, that many disabled people are terrified that they're about to lose all income or rights when they can't work, that children with additional needs can't have essential help and support for an education, that the roads are in an appalling state and the country's dirty and full of uncollected rubbish, and all the rest of it?

Where should that money go first? On meeting real, immediate and serious unmet need? Or providing wholly unneccessary luxuries for criminal men for purposes of self expression?

OldCrone · 12/04/2025 08:19

napody · 11/04/2025 17:07

Are they not?! That's genuinely shocking, but I still think best addressed as a separate point.

@floisme I do see your point re ideology. I'm still not fully convinced- I worry it will get us into the realm of 'taxpayers money shouldnt be funding tvs etc etc'.

Hmm, I'm not sure. I do see what you're saying, I think it's more that this is at last something I can mentally file under 'live and let live' as far as trans ideology goes. They're not saying this makes transwomen women, just perhaps that it might cause distress to some to only be able to dress/present as masculine. I would be OK with a deluded prisoner who thought they were superman to be given a cape to wear from time to time too, to be honest!

They're not saying this makes transwomen women, just perhaps that it might cause distress to some to only be able to dress/present as masculine.

Please explain why I am supposed to care if a rapist feels distressed because he can't indulge his fetish in prison.

Bosky · 11/04/2025 22:52

It is bad enough that these men are allowed to indulge their < redacted to avoid ban hammer > in prison if they buy their own clobber but to have taxpayers stump up for convicts to cos play as women is really taking the piss.

Some quotes from Grayson Perry to illuminate:

Perry rarely dresses up unless he’s going out, because it’s such an effort. Does he ever get bored with it? Now he tells me I don’t understand the nature of transvestism. “No, I’m not bored with transvestism. That would be silly – I’m a transvestite. The dress is only one element of the psycho-sexual process. Just because you don’t have a dress on doesn’t stop you being a tranny, in the same way as, if you’re not in bed with a man, it doesn’t stop you being gay.”

Does he still find it sexually exciting? “Oh yes,” he shouts excitedly. “Yeah!” But there is a problem, he says, with being a very public tranny. You mean, you couldn’t be seen at the Royal Academy in a nice frock and a stiffy? He nods enthusiastically. “You couldn’t do it. If I could manage it, I’m sure I’d be thinking how to do it. But I can’t.” He pauses. “My days of a spontaneous erection are long gone, anyway,” he adds a little sadly.

As a young man, he dressed as a more conventional woman. Why did Claire change her look? “I had a Damascene moment when I realised that the masquerade of dressing up as a woman and getting away with it, or ‘passing’, as they call it in the tranny world, was a fairly unrewarding experience. I used to come back from shopping in Oxford Street in my Monsoon outfit and think, well, nobody really gave me a second glance and that was boring.” He wanted to be noticed? “I was always slightly envious of those trannies who dressed more flamboyantly and didn’t give a shit.” But why, for instance, the Little Bo Peep look? “It’s a classic look. I used to call it the crack cocaine of femininity. It’s the furthest from the male macho look you could get. It’s vulnerable, it’s young, it’s humiliating. The fantasy of humiliation is a big drug for many men.”

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/oct/04/grayson-perry-dress-tranny-art-who-are-you-tv

Cross-dressing got me when I was 12. I had a fantasy about being a prisoner in a German PoW camp and being ordered to dress as a woman. It gave me such a buzz that the next day I borrowed a dress from my sister.

I’m an unapologetic fetishist, which is a dirty word in other branches of the trans community. Once during filming I hung out with a bunch of trans people and I overheard one say: “He’s just a cross-dresser.” I turned round with my gun-turret head on and said: “Just a cross-dresser?” I got their number.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/oct/13/grayson-perry-im-an-unapologetic-fetishist-

I was already a transvestite by the time I was 16. I took my stepmother’s clothes, changed in the toilets behind the Chelmsford Museum and walked up and down the high street in make-up, a mini dress and a wig. I was just acting on an instinctual desire, this need to play a role. It was very sexually exciting, a big turn on. Adrenaline is a great aphrodisiac. I got the wig from an advert in the back of the Daily Mail. It was about £1.50, a shapeless, brunette, very wiggy sort of thing. I’m sure the Daily Mail would be happy to know they facilitated my sexual fetish.

https://www.bigissue.com/culture/art/grayson-perry-daily-mail-facilitated-sexual-fetish/

He got his first thrill when he had to wear a tight, rubber smock for pottery classes at school and by the age of 12 Perry was wearing his mother’s dresses and his sister’s ballet outfit.

The sexual transgression from all the traditions of boyhood was what attracted him to female clothes.

“I have no special insight into being a woman and I would never claim that. I am just a bloke in a dress.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/23/grayson-perry-my-greatest-sort-of-sex-dream-was-to-be-a-housewif/

“Transvestites – I speak for my own community – are heavily invested in sexism,” he says. “You go to a transvestite gathering, you won’t see anybody in trousers. It’s a joke, you know: if one of the other transvestites regularly wears trousers, they go, ‘They’re going to have a sex change any minute.’ Because only real women wear trousers all the time.”

Perry thinks the transgender lobby “is a very vocal group. They punch above their weight. I do wonder why they are so angry.” Maybe because trans women almost always began as heterosexual men? Perry laughs. “Yes, so they have that entitlement. Yes, it could be.”

He argues all identity is “co-created: other people have to believe it. It is not enough for me to say, for example, ‘I am a black man,’ if no one agrees with me.” He tells me of a theory in psychotherapy – of which he has had a great deal – whereby a victim feels entitled because of their perceived oppression to become a persecutor. “And they enjoy the persecuting rather too much. Self-righteousness is an addictive drug,” he says. “People need to be weaned off.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/grayson-perry-im-not-feminine-at-all-xn2dwtwxc

Grayson Perry: 'I’m an unapologetic fetishist'

The artist, 58, on art, road rage, teddy bears and his mum’s affair with the milkman

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/oct/13/grayson-perry-im-an-unapologetic-fetishist-

Justme56 · 11/04/2025 17:28

https://sex-matters.org/posts/case-law/green-v-secretary-of-state-for-justice/

There was a case where a prisoner went to court re GR discrimination about this, but lost as the comparator was male - they didn’t have a GRC. Seems they wanted a wide range of items not just clothes.

Green v Secretary of State for Justice - Sex Matters

2013 High Court

https://sex-matters.org/posts/case-law/green-v-secretary-of-state-for-justice/

AstoriaWaldorfSalad · 11/04/2025 17:17

Just remembering the M&S underwear reviews and then hearing about this "clothes dump" idea and really, really wishing I hadn't.

napody · 11/04/2025 17:07

SeethingHarpie · 11/04/2025 13:41

Are female inmates with mastectomies provided with medical/prosthetic bras? Are those who are incontinent or have their period are provided with incontinence or period pants? When the basics are provided for females in the female estate, then maybe TIMs getting “pretty women’s clothes” won’t seem to be in the realm of indulging trans privilege.

Are they not?! That's genuinely shocking, but I still think best addressed as a separate point.

@floisme I do see your point re ideology. I'm still not fully convinced- I worry it will get us into the realm of 'taxpayers money shouldnt be funding tvs etc etc'.

Hmm, I'm not sure. I do see what you're saying, I think it's more that this is at last something I can mentally file under 'live and let live' as far as trans ideology goes. They're not saying this makes transwomen women, just perhaps that it might cause distress to some to only be able to dress/present as masculine. I would be OK with a deluded prisoner who thought they were superman to be given a cape to wear from time to time too, to be honest!

SeethingHarpie · 11/04/2025 13:41

Are female inmates with mastectomies provided with medical/prosthetic bras? Are those who are incontinent or have their period are provided with incontinence or period pants? When the basics are provided for females in the female estate, then maybe TIMs getting “pretty women’s clothes” won’t seem to be in the realm of indulging trans privilege.

OP posts:
Floisme · 11/04/2025 09:26

napody · 11/04/2025 06:53

If a transwoman is in a male prison (as they should be) I'm fine with them having access to some clothes tbh. Don't feel the need to stick the boot in - loss of liberty is the punishment.

I think it's best to focus on the actual issue (women's safety and diginity) - jumping with outrage because the daily express told you to is a dangerous path to go down.

Your post did make me stop and think, but I believe that, at best, the prison inspectors' recommendation feeds the deeply sexist narrative that a transwoman is trapped in the wrong body and furthermore that the taxpayer has some kind of responsibility to support them on their 'transgender journey'. So no, I don't think this is harmless, I'm not fine with it and if the Scottish Daily Express is the only media outlet with the gumption to point out what's going on then so be it.

Lovelysummerdays · 11/04/2025 08:06

SaltPorridge · 11/04/2025 07:32

My feeling is that it does matter what clothes men wear, and that demands for feminine coded clothes such as pretty blouses or female-specific items such as bras are disrespectful.
Any pretence that a man is a woman is either a manifestation of mental illness or it's them seeing what they can get away with. In the first case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not encouragement in their delusions. In the second case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not being allowed to take the piss.
Mumsnet could you for the love of sanity not delete this post? It's ludicrous that we can't freely and fully discuss this matter.

It does sort of remind me of the bloke who transitioned got put in the female estate 😡who then wanted to be a a baby. Personally I think it’s bonkers. The phrase that stuck out is prisons are very attuned to human rights at the moment so requests are given proper consideration. Female prisoners wear joggers and t shirts too. The difference is cut because women are shaped differently and a bit shorter.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-murderer-prison-identify-baby-26669658.amp

Lovelysummerdays · 11/04/2025 07:55

Hobbitfeet32 · 11/04/2025 07:37

what is women’s clothing? I wear mostly jeans, t shirts and hoodies. Maybe shorts. Size 6-8. I’m guessing this is what they mean?

Women wear their own clothes a lot of the time. You are supposed to turn up to sentencing with a bag of approved clothing from a list. Essentially joggers, shorts, pjs, T-shirts and jumpers. There was a thread on this recently because female prisoners have to handwash their own knickers and someone hadn’t packed so was doing her solo pair her every night. In the male estate they are laundered with everything else.

Hobbitfeet32 · 11/04/2025 07:37

what is women’s clothing? I wear mostly jeans, t shirts and hoodies. Maybe shorts. Size 6-8. I’m guessing this is what they mean?

SaltPorridge · 11/04/2025 07:32

My feeling is that it does matter what clothes men wear, and that demands for feminine coded clothes such as pretty blouses or female-specific items such as bras are disrespectful.
Any pretence that a man is a woman is either a manifestation of mental illness or it's them seeing what they can get away with. In the first case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not encouragement in their delusions. In the second case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not being allowed to take the piss.
Mumsnet could you for the love of sanity not delete this post? It's ludicrous that we can't freely and fully discuss this matter.

PriOn1 · 11/04/2025 07:21

Though I would add that it does still suggest that the prison watchdogs are still unreasonably captured by transactivism and tending towards privilege for those prisoners, which is more problematic.

PriOn1 · 11/04/2025 07:12

napody · 11/04/2025 06:53

If a transwoman is in a male prison (as they should be) I'm fine with them having access to some clothes tbh. Don't feel the need to stick the boot in - loss of liberty is the punishment.

I think it's best to focus on the actual issue (women's safety and diginity) - jumping with outrage because the daily express told you to is a dangerous path to go down.

Yup, I agree with this. So long as they are in a men’s prison and are treated as well (or as badly) as all the other men, I don’t really care. If tax payers provide clothes for men that can’t afford them for one reason or another, then the same should be provided for men who claim they are women. No special privileges should be given. If they want items such as wigs and make-up, they should find the money from what they earn. I bet the women don’t get extra for those things.

napody · 11/04/2025 06:53

If a transwoman is in a male prison (as they should be) I'm fine with them having access to some clothes tbh. Don't feel the need to stick the boot in - loss of liberty is the punishment.

I think it's best to focus on the actual issue (women's safety and diginity) - jumping with outrage because the daily express told you to is a dangerous path to go down.

RedToothBrush · 11/04/2025 06:44

central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items

Difficult to source items.

If trans women are women what is it they need to wear that's 'difficult to source'?! What's wrong with Tesco Extra? Or the local charity shop?

What exactly is it that prisons are finding 'difficult to source' unless... It's not something that women typically need / use.

SigourneyHoward · 11/04/2025 06:08

Job lot of pink leggings it is then

BellissimoGecko · 11/04/2025 06:01

Well, jeans and T-shirts are women’s clothes. They can have those. Though I suspect they are not the kind of ‘women’s clothes’ they are thinking of…

absolutely bloody ridiculous.

Bosky · 11/04/2025 04:29

Not sure about this plan to reduce tax-payer spending on that "central repository" of women's clothes for men in prison.

Doncaster jail sets up women's clothing exchange for transgender prisoners
18 Aug 2023

HMP Doncaster in Marshgate has reportedly set up a ‘clothing dump’ behind bars where women can leave clothes for trans prisoners.
The plan was disclosed in a letter by a transgender inmate to the national prison newspaper Inside Time.

It read: 'Hello everyone, I am a transgender prisoner currently serving time in HMP Doncaster.

"So often I see the men in here swapping clothing and it gave me an idea.

"Coming into prison, I had only the clothing on my back. And as a woman, I couldn’t really benefit from the clothes swap culture as I am in a men’s prison and need certain female items.

'I pitched an idea to the Equalities Department, as I am the Equalities Rep for my wing, where we could set up a clothing dump for transgender prisoners coming into the prison and who may not have much, if anything. I donated some of my own.
'The Equalities Department approved the idea.

"Enthusiastically. I’m writing to ask everyone reading this if you are able to donate any female items of clothing to this clothing dump here at Doncaster.

"We would very much appreciate it.

Some other info in the same article:

A HM Chief Inspector of Prisons report and survey last year estimated around 5 per cent of the same jail population identified as transgender or transsexual, with the report showing there were 168 legally-male trans women prisoners in England and Wales.

Six of them were in women's prisons and the rest in men's jails last year, while a further 11, who are in men's institutions, legally changed their gender through a gender recognition certificate.

----

Just wondering how many of the "women" in HMP Doncaster are sex offenders?

HMP Doncaster sex offender rise 'to reduce violence'
12 October 2017

Hundreds of alleged or convicted sex offenders have been placed in a prison to tackle high levels of violence, a report has found.

Inspectors said the "deliberate policy" was aimed at "stabilising" the population at privately-run HMP Doncaster.

This had been done without adequate measures to support the men and the risk they pose, the report said.

Serco said staff had worked hard to address complex challenges.

The Prison Officers Association said increasing the number of sex offenders in jails could help reduce violence because they largely had a less volatile temperament towards staff and other inmates compared to prisoners with non-sexual offences.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-41585901

A couple of those "less volatile" HMP Doncaster sex offenders:

Muscle-bound sex offender held fellow inmate hostage in terrifying two-hour ordeal at Doncaster prison
28 Feb 2024
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/crime/samuel-frost-muscle-bound-sex-offender-held-fellow-inmate-hostage-demanded-to-speak-to-south-yorkshire-prison-governor-4529390

Doncaster sex offender jailed for attempted rape and strangulation
16 Dec 2024

A Doncaster sex offender who strangled a woman before attempting to rape her has been jailed after an investigation by South Yorkshire Police’s Protecting Vulnerable People (PVP) unit.

Francis O'Connor brutally assaulted his victim by grabbing her throat and putting his legs around her neck, before later trying to rape her as she slept.

The victim bravely managed to fight him off and get to safety, but not before 30-year-old O'Connor grabbed her throat again in another terrifying assault.

O'Connor, of HMP Doncaster, then fled the scene in the victim's car and stole £300 of cash from her before officers located him and arrested him.

(Why was he out of jail in the first place??)

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/courts/doncaster-sex-offender-jailed-for-attempted-rape-and-strangulation-4910998

HMP Doncaster sign

HMP Doncaster sex offender rise 'to reduce violence'

The number of alleged or convicted sex offenders at HMP Doncaster had trebled to just over 300.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-41585901

Bosky · 11/04/2025 04:02

FFS!! From the Scottish Daily Express article:

"Like prisons in England, SPS HQ may want to consider creating a central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items."

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scots-prisons-should-offer-taxpayer-35025435

So somewhere in England there is already a taxpayer-funder "central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items." for men in prison who claim to be women!

There should not be any need for this because there is a "Prisoner Retail" policy which states:

7.2 Transsexual prisoners must be allowed access to catalogues and specialist products including clothing and cosmetics.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f4816eee90e07298ea3c868/psi-23-2013-prisoner-retail.pdf

I think for "transsexual" we can read "transgender" as there is no separate general operational policy for "transsexual" prisoners:

The care and management of individuals who are transgender
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

A Prisoner's Guide to Trans Rights
Dec 2023

Access to clothing and items to express your gender identity.

The Operational Guidance is very clear about the right to access clothing and other items you need in order to express your gender identity. It states:
“transgender individuals must be allowed to wear clothing consistent with their identified gender. This may be subject to risk, operational and security assessments. Items to support gender identity should be obtained from an equivalent opposite-gender prison.”

The Operational Guidance also recognises the important of prosthetics and states:
“transgender individuals sometimes use special garments or prosthetics to help them
present in a more feminine/masculine appearance. They can be crucial to their appearance and self-conference in effectively living and being accepted in the gender they identify with. Establishments are encouraged to provide such items, but only after sufficient risk assessments have been made on the items and the Governor is satisfied that it does not compromise security or safety……

If there any difficulties with an individual retaining special garments or prosthetic items in their possession, advice should be sought from a gender identity clinic or mental health team before any decision is made. All decisions are to be recorded.”

Practically this means that you should be able to have access to gender affirming clothing and items from the prison, subject to a risk assessment and security issues. One way of obtaining the items is to ask your personal officer to provide you with a catalogue of items that would be available in either a male/female prison. You should then be able to order these items on a canteen sheet. If you have difficulties in ordering products, you should follow the complaints process as described below.

Full document:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/632cd0d1baa2223bff9113e0/t/65d5006f7186825c566cd264/1708458097554/PAS-TRANSGENDER-TOOLKIT-2023.pdf

What Can Prisoners Buy in Jail

"Prisoners purchase these items through a ‘prison account,’ which is funded by their earnings from prison work or money sent by family and friends. The system ensures that prisoners can manage their funds and buy items they need, though all purchases are subject to prison regulations and checks."

https://prisonguide.co.uk/what-can-prisoners-buy-in-jail/

General info about prison clothing:

What prison clothing is provided in the UK
https://prisonguide.co.uk/what-prison-clothing-is-provided-in-the-uk/

UK Prison Clothing Rules and Guidelines
https://prisonguide.co.uk/prison-clothing/

What can prisoners buy in jail

What Can Prisoners Buy in Jail: Complete Guide

What can prisoners buy in jail? Discover the range of items prisoners can purchase, including hygiene products, snacks, and entertainment options.

https://prisonguide.co.uk/what-can-prisoners-buy-in-jail

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2025 17:58

MarieDeGournay · 10/04/2025 17:18

What's the problem? They're welcome to women's clothing, like what I'm wearing today - jeans, t-shirt, jumper...Grin

Women can wear second hand, badly fitted, slightly stained clothes too...

... something tells me this isn't what is being considered.

MarieDeGournay · 10/04/2025 17:18

What's the problem? They're welcome to women's clothing, like what I'm wearing today - jeans, t-shirt, jumper...Grin